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Hello,

We will be recording soon, and I have noticed a few comments about difficulties recording the hang. I have played on one track of a friend's CD and did notice that the sound wasn't exactly as I believe it really sounds. I have two microphones, one either side on an angle.

Any suggestions from those with hard won experience would be appreciated before we head into the studio in the next couple of weeks.

Thanks...

I like to use at least 3 mics. You must also make sure that the microphones are 45 degrees to eachother or you will experience "phasing" - this is where the input from one microphone cancels the input on the other and you do not hear the full sound.

I also find that using very sensitive microphones that are 4 or 5 feet away from the Hang will get a better sound because you hear more of the overall Hang tones and not the tones from the side of the Hang that is closer to the microphone.

Grreat, thanks Dante,
I was wondering about 3 mics, and certainly if they are further away I could imagine that givinig a more even sound. Much appreciated.

Hey hangsters,

On this YouTube video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd58pPgmivI&feature=related

The hang is recorded using a Contact Microphone.

I am happy to run with the 3 microphones idea, but was curious about this, and also whether it might be more practical in some ways?

I'd be interested to hear others' comments or experience.

Cheers,

I think contact mics are only usable if you want to modify the hang sound electronically as in the video. For an orginal Hang sound contact mics are useless.

Ix

Thanks, really good to know.
I wasn't sure if that sound he had was from how he'd rigged it up and with the other music happening at the same time it was a bit hard to know what was actually going on.
I'm all for the original sound so will happily go with three microphones.

Hello -

I'm doing a project research paper on the Hang - To get my degree as sound technician. I'd like to ask you more about your mic setup if you don't mind, I'm supposed to research ways to record the Hang as it sounds on CDs and Youtube. Hopefully I can compile hang recording techniques that correspond to different musical situations where the hang is happenin'.

1) You say 45 degrees to each other... as in an ORTF spaced pair mic setup?
2) By very sensitive mics, you mean large condenser omnidirectional microphones?
3) Where do you point the microphone, to the Ding or towards one side (flange) of the Hang?
4) When recording the Hang which microphone polar pattern is best? omni, cardioid, supercardioid, 8 figure, shotgun?
5) Is it better to record in big rooms ro smaller rooms?

Hope I didn't get too technical... the sound I'm trying to emulate is Dante Bucci's Hang tone: round, full and warm. Sometimes is lute-like, sometimes it's like soft bells.

BTW To avoid phase problems... why don't you give a try to the 3:1 rule: two mics picking up the same source are at least three times as far from each other as they are from the source. Say you're 30cm away from the Hang... then distance between mics should be at least 90cm. Spaced pairs do add more ambience (you pick up more room sound).

Hi,

I know the question was not directed at me but I have some comments since I first posted this.

I have found the three mics to be problematic on stage. Partly because of using up 3 mics and 3 outlets when there are other musicians etc.
Also to get three good quality mics.
Also I find I get a bit buried in them. It is tricky to set them up so they don't get in the way, especially when you need to come and go from your seat.
I did start with three, but have since gone to two or one, depending on the quality of the mic, and depending on availability of mics and outlets.
One good quality high sensitivity mic up above the hang feels better to me than the three.

In the recording studio I had three mics. One was higher sensitivity than the other two, and they were placed at 45 degree angles and pointed towards the notes around the hang rather than to the ding. For the quality of the microphones I believe I can trust the sound engineers as they do high quality work. Technicaal details of the mics I cannot offer. You might like to check the result - we have sound samples on our website (listen to Alchemy and Grace) http://samjjana.com

I would be interested to hear commenbts about it, as we will be recording again in the next few months and any improvements are welcome.

Interesting alsos to know about the two mic set up. It sounds good too. I haven't had a problemm with using something like that, but have not known to observe the 3:1 ration - I will be careful to pay attention to that in future.

So, very interesting - thanks.
Good luck with your sound engineering studies.

Cheers,

Thanx for the input Samjjana!

I do know a professional musician who's a great percussionist and composer, he lent his C dorian High Voice Gudu Hang to me for a day and he's willing to do another session which I'll be recording this week. I'll go for a multi-mic setup... I'm not recording live music per se, I'm researching hang recording techniques for the studio.

You do have a point though - when recording a musician first thing is to make her/him feel and play comfortably. If you bury her/him in mics and make him feel constricted so he won't play as relaxed as he should your take will reflect that.

Perhaps that 3 mic setup means spaced pair + room mic? And by High Sensitivity mics you mean condenser, highly directional mics? Some nice Hang recordings I've read about were made with a stereo pair though - I read about a particular session that turned out very nice using AKGs C414 microphones in a non-coincident spaced pair setup (ORTF pair = 17cm away). Same mics in Mid-Side mic configuration would also work well too. A third condenser mic with large diafragm (Neumann U87) was added closer to the Hang to add more "mic sound coloration" (they liked the way the U87 sounds no surprise there) and more of the Hang's bass tones. Perhaps this could also mean that spaced mics could be too far apart and you may lose some center low tone definition... hence a closer high quality mic with good bass frequency response.

You could also have someone moving that 3rd mic around the room while you're playing until you find the sweet spot - that's where you want your room mic to be. You could try a small condenser mic too if there's no U87... there's no fast rules and a lot of ground to experiment with.

Piezo/Contact mics are not that good if you want natural sound of the Hang IMHO... tried one Mike Ribbon mic vs a Senheiser shotgun mic on my first Hang session... liked second mic best.

As for live sound I wonder... I've played and recorded a C Dorian scale Gudu Hang, so low C4 is 261.6Hz and High C5 is 523.3Hz and Ding bass note is G3 which is 196Hz. If I'm not mistaken this could be covered by a SM57 mic. Live sound systems will not cover that much above 12kHz anyway. Just theory though... I've yet to confirm it.

Lastly, I should mention 3:1 is not a fail safe, foolproof trick... it may or may not work depending on your situation. Phase means distance differences between mics = time differences between mics relative to sound source = wave cancellations at some frequencies = Comb filtering (papery, thin sound) You can adjust phase problems but never get rid of them. This article will explain much better http://www.recordingeq.com/articles/321eq.html

Already a long post, apologies.

Peace!
ResidentRenzo

I think before you consider about recording techniques and mic typs and positions, it is more important to think about the source you want to record.

You wrote that you used a C Dorian first generation Hang with a G Ding for your recording experiments. So your experience will be quite limited to this type of instrument.

Before recording a Hang one have to consider the following questions:

Is it an early Hang of the first generation (2001 -2004)?
Is it a Low Hang (2005)?
Is it as second generation Hang or Integral Hang?
Is it a Ding in A, G, F, Eb or D?
Does the Hang player put the Hang on a stand (that's quite bad), on the ground (that castrates the Hang) or does he let it rest on his lap (adequate)?
Does the Hang player know how to integrate the air resonance? Can he let find Ding and Gu together?

The importance of these questions is much more important for the newer Hang since 2005. The main question is: Is it the aim of the recording to get the whole Hang sound? Or do you want to castrate the Gu, because it disturbs the sound when the player isn't able to intigrate it. Is the Ding higher than F, it is not possible to integrate the Gu as it is possible with a deeper Ding.

Because the Gu-Ding-Integration is the center of the Hang sound beginning with the Low Hang (2005) and more important since the second generation with D-Ding, this is the major challenge for the sound engineer who want to record a Hang. But he need a Hang player who understand this.

Ix

Hi Ix, thanx for reply -

Unfortunately I can't show you pics of the Hang I'm working with without the owner's consent. But I can give you Nico Arnicho's myspace URL: http://www.myspace.com/nicoarnicho
Highly recommended listening... check out "Gitano de Momo" there's the Hang playing a motif that goes through the song. Nico's a well known percussionist here, check it out to learn more about him.

Answering your questions...

1) First generation, High voice. It's a Gudu Hang made between 2004-2007. Bought in Madrid, by Nicolas Arnicho when he was teaching percussion courses at a music school there. Nico's an uruguayan percussionist, composer and musician. I live in Uruguay as you can see... Don't have with me the serial number at the moment, I can tell you later.

2) It has 8 notes: C4 D4 Eb4 F4 G4 A4 Bb4 C5 (Dorian) and fifth as the bass tone Ding at G3.

3) It's a first generation Hang right? Can't possibly be an IH, that wasn't made until 2008.

4) As mentioned above.

5) Recorded Hang resting on lap. There's a Mike Ribbon contact mic inside the Gu neck, this is because Nico often leads & plays with percussion and electric ensembles and needs to be heard. Perhaps Gu resonance is already impaired, don't know.

6) Do you mean playing the Hang vertically? (a style of playing used by Sabina Schärer herself)

I'm recording to get a natural Hang sound, no EQ nor compression or fx processing. Since Ding is G3 then there's no Gu integration (by integration, you mean more Helmholtz resonance into the steel pan tone?) This is for my final project paper so I can get my tech degree at ORT University.

I'm a guitarist and got hooked on the Hang last year, and consider myself really lucky I could experience one of these sound sculptures hands on.

Peace!
ResidentRenzo

Hi ResidentRenzo,

the questions I asked were not meant to be answered in your special case. I wanted to draw attention on these aspects. If you only deal with the recording of Nicolas Arnicho playing a first generation Hang with a G-Ding that shouldn't be misunderstood for dealing with the recording of "the Hang". If, for example, I came to you and asked you to record me playing my 2007 built second generation Hang with a D-Ding, we had a quite different situation and other needs of recording because I play a different Hang and am very interested in the Gu-Ding-integration.

Since the second generation the center of Hang sound became a acoustical structure that is called an "acoustical cathedral" by the Hang makers. The basis of this "cathedral" is the Gu-Ding resonance (or Gu-Ding integration as I called it above - one of the reasons why the Integral Hang is called "Integral"). This resonance appears when the frequency of the Helmholtz resonance is brought exactly one octave under the frequency of the Ding (D3). If you held the Hang with wide spread legs or put it on a stand, the Helmholtz resonance is an F2 and doesn't resonate with the Ding: The Ding cannot oscillate freely, it sounds like blocked up. If you put the Hang on your lap with a little angle of your legs you can find the position when Gu and Ding find together: The cathedral will "flourish up". Also the tones in the circle will get more depth in sound, the whole vessel becomes sensitive for the touches of the hands.

Many musicians are not interested in the Gu-Ding-Integration because they play on stages, with bands, as buskers on the street: Surroundings where the Gu-Ding-Integration hasn't any chance to be able to be experienced. Players of Hanghang with G or A Ding cannot integrate Gu and Ding because you can only lower the Helmholtz resonance. Therefor an F-Ding is the highest Ding that can be brought in resonance with the Gu.

Ix

Hi Ix -

Interesting bit about the Integral Hang. Then Ding-Gu resonance happens when Ding note is F3 or lower? So that's why you modify the resonance with your legs and get an F2 note from the Gu mouth... nice!



I never said a single recording of a single Hang would be representative of its sound, and wouldn't dare to be as arrogant as to record a Fender Telecaster through a Bassman Tweed amp and pretend it's a representation of "The Guitar". Even the same guitar & amp would be completely different when played by different guitarists (think how many people copied Jimi Hendrix gear and tone so close but no one nailed it 100% perfect yet). And let's say you play guitar without a pick a la Mark Knopfler... then it's a different game altogether.

Sound engineers have to adapt to any playing technique musicians may have and register them properly. Also, the Hang is meant to be approached freely so there are even more factors on the equation.

I'm collecting/analyzing data hoping it would be of use as future reference for sound technicians experiencing the hang for the first time on the studio. Perhaps inspiring them to experiment more with different rooms, screens, mics... you get the idea.

Peace!
ResidentRenzo.

The unubstructed Gu is F2. When you narrow your legs closer to the Gu opening you can lower the resonance. If you have a Ding in D3 you must lower it to a D2. Then Gu and Ding are connected and in resonance.

Ix

Wow Ix. Thanks for the lesson. I learned so much reading this post.

Yes, thanks everyone for lots of interesting information.
A bit of a challenge for me technically, in relation to mics and recording etc, so I think next time we record the easiest thing to do will be that I ask the sound engineer to read this thread!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybN1iLkPdQQ

This video is a good demonstration of what I wrote about: Certainly an excellent recording technique with a lot of mics. But all the technique cannot make the hang sound. In this video you can listen to the half of a Hang played well and recorded with good technique. The Ding has no heart. It sounds flat and a bit dull, so the player has to play with some special effects to make it interesting. The reason is the complete lack of the Gu. There is no Gu-Ding resonance. You only hear the naked Ding without depth.

I'm really wondering how much care is often taken in playing technique and recording technique, but no one seems to care about the center of the Hang sound - the Gu-Ding resonance.

Does anyone know a video in which the player cares about the Gu-Ding resonance?

Ix

Hi -

Loved the sound! I wonder if a mic with good low-frequency response pointed to the mouth of the Gu could have gotten that Gu-Ding resonance?

Here's the video from the session I did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN-X577L3Cs

Filmed with digital camera, audio is from session (mixed and bounced was done in ProTools)

I can't even begin to compare my video with the previous one (hey it IS a Neve mixing desk after all!) ...I had limited resources:

1) Few mics, no ElectroVoice RE20 for Gu (dynamic bass drum mic) cause it was broken
2) Room was not completely noise proof
3) Digital console had some internal clock issues

Anyway, I managed to record Nico Arnicho's playing, a very educational experience itself
Can't wait to record again!

Peace!
ResidentRenzo