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I asked a question - not to delete your posts.

Any idea of an answer?

yes i remember, but i have wrote before that i have a feeling the one of the reasons for Free tuning off 440Hz is to aviod the Low C problem, wich was not an improvement on earlirer Hanghang, right?

otherwise i see no reason to tune not to 440 even by ears.

you know that concert pianos are tuned by ears but to a 440 standart.

the only conclusion i can come up with is that it is to avoid varying resonance(from Hang to Hang) wich i know is there and concerns Integral hang aswell,

but my question was: do Panart include it in the Sculpture or do they avoid it?

as it seems to me that you don't know the answer to this question - just keep it unanswered untill you have any information, please! we don't need too much speculations about this, right?

Yes, I know all this and I have many ideas, but my English is too limited and can not explain these things. (I use a translator and translate very poorly most of the words.)
by this I do not usually comment on the forums (and also I have not much time) sorry!

Blessing.

Very interesting discussion indeed.

in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdKQV2OM ... ture=inbox

this Free Hang is tuned to Db, that means the 2nd note in the circle falls right on B! exactly where the chamber resonance usually is.

need to check other Free hang tunings...

My Free Hang is tuned very near to Db too. The third tone in the circle is Cb4 (enharmonic equivalent of B3). I haven't any problem with this tone field. It sounds clear and I can dose it easily. It has fewer beatings than the Db4 or Fb4.

What do you mean with chamber resonance here?

As i wrote here before that every Hang has some kind of chamber resonance around 500Hz - high B note. It looks like now Hangmakers are including it in the sound sculpture, wich makes it the main principle to tune it off 440Hz from my point of view.

But what is the meaning of chamber resonance? I don't know this term. What is the resonator?

i am not sure what exactly is the nature of this resonance. if i knew it, it wouldnt be a problem...

it is a resonance of an empty space inside the Hang or any other instrument with a similar form, wich apears after 2 hemispheres are joined.

it is not Helmholz, wich is much lower.

i have made observations and found some ways to move it up or down a bit(quarter step), wich i have described at handpan.org forum.

This may help. its from a webpage for electroacoustic music.

http://www.ears.dmu.ac.uk

greetz


Resonance

[ Disciplines of Study [DoS] > Acoustics ]

When a system with a natural vibrating frequency is stimulated by an outside force of the same frequency, the system can be set in vibration. As the frequency of the stimulus closely approaches that of the system, oscillation occurs, which reaches a maximum amplitude at the natural resonant frequency.

Resonance can occur in any vibrating system, including electrical circuits, the sound boxes of musical instruments, rooms, the cavities of the human body, including the vocal tract (formant) and other objects. It can be regarded as a type of natural amplification in that the transfer of acoustic energy is made more efficient, as opposed to an electroacoustic amplifier where energy is added to the system. (Source: Barry Truax - Handbook for Acoustic Ecology CD-ROM Edition. Cambridge Street Publishing, 1999 - CSR-CDR 9901)

I know what resonance is. My question was what Victor meant with "chamber resonance" in this special case, because I didn't find a German translation for this term and wanted to know what the resonator was. Victor has already answered my question.

Michael,

i would like to continue the dicussion about FIH tuning...

as i remember, you were saying that it is somehow parallel to a stretch piano tuning, right?

something about overtones and tones relation been shifted because of material properties and etc...

so, in pianos octaves are usually tuned slightly higher, and higher again, and so on...

does the same applies to the FIH?

I already answered this question before: viewtopic.php?p=6284#p6284

You made some strong statements about the bad tuning of the Free Integral Hang on handpan.org some days ago. I think you should think that over. Can it really be true that Felix Rohner and Sabina Schärer lost their tuning skills? Is it not more likely that there is more to detect?

Some weeks ago I read a very interesting article by Anthony Achong about detuning as the most important parameter of steelpan tuning. This gave me a deeper understanding where the idea of the free tuning is based on. So I was able to add an explanation of the free tuning to the German Wikipedia article: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hang_(Musikinstrument)#Freies_Integrales_Hang

Michael

yes, i did it. and i stand behind them(statements). lost their skills? no, i dont think so - more like they dont care anymore...

Michael, i am not deaf...more so, i have made anylisys of the tuning wich showed that there is no system whatsoever. beyond that there was no person in the world who was captivated by the sound of that exact FIH.

you have to know that my ear(inner strobe as you say) is not that critical to precise tuning.

you write:
"So the fundamental and the octave and all the other higher harmonics are sharper on stretched tuning"

but in that particular Hang there were octaves on some notes were down up tp 20cents and some fifth(even in notes were octave was down) up by 30%!

did it sound good? no! was one able to combine sounds in one holistic sculpture? no!


it is not only that:

but general construction look a lot rougher. it was not smooth/round anymore, it was edgy, not so much work between the notes. the glue bond thicknes was varrying from 0.1mm-2mm!!! all around.

note boundaries are very sharp, with a lot of mistakes(imperfections). tone fileds look like asteroids... if you ask me - that is very quick work! and no need for fine tuning.

beyound that there were 4th partials apearing in 2 lowest notes like in early Halos.

i have forgot that it also hand Bb note on top slightly higher, very close to cavity resonance at B wich mad a very bad annoying sound.

btw, as i expected 2nd low note was tuned exactly to cavity resonance! remember i told you?


maybe you should think over who you trust?

here is the link to a soundfile:

http://myspacefilehosting.com/lnezh/FIH.wav.html

i know what you are going to say:

notes shouldnt be isolated, the recording doesnt capture the sound of the Hang.

but thats hilarious!

do you believe that yourself? deep inside?

dont you think that if each tone and overtones sound good independetly, it will sound better in combination?

we all know how recordings can bring the down side of the sound in front, but it doesnt mean it is not there! that didnt stop you from making judgments on the Halo, based on the youtube clips, right?

P.S. there are some nice sounding FIHs out there for sure, and i have heard some of them. but thats the stories of how people choose 1 from 200 claiming that all other sounded dull and there very only few decent ones. one story i know a person had to talk 3 hours with Felix Rohner to convince him to make his Hang sound better.

Hi Victor,

I am not an expert with musical theory. So I cant say something about your special questions to Michael.

I was on the Hanghouse a few times and I watched Felix Rohner making a Hang. He told me a lot about his work. I also watched a few of your videos.
Between your tuning technic and the technic from Felix Rohner are worlds.
This is not meant as an estimation. You are looking for correct frequencys. It is not a big secret, that you "only" need the correct ration on an tone field to have
a "correct" tuning.
Panart teached a lot of people, bevore they leave the world of Steelpan. This is relative easy to do.
Panart left the world of Pythagoras behind them.

This Hang you have researched is a Hang what "speaked" to the person who picked it out of a big number of Hanghang in the Hanghouse.
Nobody forced this person, to pick up just this Hang.
I am absolute confident, that the Hangmakers make every Hang with the same dedication. But every day is another day. If you only listen to your inner
"tuner", not all days are the same. Any Hang is an individual item of Art. If you come with your strobe tuner, you will fail to understand.

Again. The person who picked up this Hang had the choice between a lot of Hanghang. I was in Bern a few weeks ago. I played a lot of Hanghang in these days.
All are very different. A few dont speak to me and I was not in resonance with those. I am sure, other people like these Hanghang and will find a connection.
At the end of this days, i found my Free Integral Hang and I am very happy with this Hang.
It has a very strong energy and dynamic. I have also an Integral Hang and I like it. But after a few weeks of playing the Free Integral Hang, I can tell you, that the sound from the Integral Hang is not so "livelily" as the Free Integral Hang sound. But with your tuner, you would say: "The Integral Hang is correct and better".
I play a lot of Hanghang since years. I know how it feels.
Yes, you could read the papers from Achong, as Michael recommended. You always will learn on your way.
Nothing is wrong, to make instuments with a 440 Hz pitch and "correct" harmonys. It is only a very different matter.
On the Free Integral Hang is nothing, what you can detect with your tuner. Only with your feeling.

Greetings
Frank

this is not true Frank, what you have seen is only fine tuning. befire that step there a whole different story in preparation of the mechanism.

what you say is rubbish, sorry... with correct ratios you will have nothing!

you are right there is world between our tuning methods.

ask Swarup, he was here just a week ago with his famous Hang.

and you know what? it was so bad made.

5 of 8 tonefileds were lacking tension and stability including Ding. wich lead to sound crashing on a load.

i had to fix that and it was a lot of work... now Davide is so happy with the quality of his tuing.

Felix and Sabina are not the best tuners in the world and most of steelpan tuner know that.

sorry to waste you dream... but get real!

Frank,

you a reffering to videos of me tuning, right? wich ones exactly?

do you want to discuss what i am doing there? i am open for that.

or better maybe if you come here and see how it goes?

it takes about 4-6 hours to finish a tuning of one 10 tone instrument, do you think it is posssible to tune with just correct ratios?

my advice: if you dont know - dont say anything, or you will look silly.

Hi again,

Swarups Hang? You speak about his second generation Hang?
The Hang what was likely in the hands of a lot of people? Sitting in loud and noisy streets in amsterdam?
Years old and travelled all over the world. You realy think, that this Hang was treated carefully all the time and no djembe players hit this Hang way to hard?
If you beliefe that this Hang is in the same condition as it leaves the Hanghouse year ago... ok. Up to you.
Do you know, who except you has also tryed to fix it?

I dont know, why you so angry about Panart and it seems that you are on a mission to bad mouth their work.

Frank

Frank,

the philosophy is always here to guard the ways we choose... if you know what i mean.

words are nothing, it is just a vibration of air. we need actions, proofs. blind testing if you like...

i dont trust Hangmakers, and they did a lot to deserve that.

i have respect for the work they did earlier, but i have no for what they are doing now.


FIH is what it is, and i am fine with that as long as it is not pointed out like and advancement of the artform.