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Aareon, your post brings me at the limits of my English skills. So perhaps I didn't get everything right (the problem is that at 11:09 am I cannot invest an half hour only to assure to understand only one post completely).

I cannot speek for Frank but for me I'm really sorry that the term disrespect was introduced into this discussion. Now it leads to terms like "moral responsibility", "feelings of offense" and even "religious faith". This drives the discussion in a completely wrong direction.

The point of discussion are not offended feelings or whishes of Hang makers, or something like this. It is whether a term that was spread in a little community without knowledge based discussion should be replaced by a better term after a knowledge based discussion. It isn't to late to "seed" another term if the people involved in this topic are open for such a knowledge based discussion.

This is not a discussion of a few days. As I wrote in other posts we need information input.



You're right playing the Hang requires no historical knowledge. But discussion of an deciding about a theoretical term describing an instrument category needs.

Ix

I just thought of an important aspect of this discussion:
Handpan is not a name of an instrument but a name of an instrument category.
While the name or an instrument is unique for this single instrument and created by its inventors, makers, dealers, and/or players and spread in the way aaron explained, the name of an instrument category is part of a theoretical consideration. It's part of musical theory called ??? (I don't know the Engish term for it).

Therefor this topic has to be seen as part of a theory about tuned sheet steel instruments (working title!!!).

If we want to name an instrument there isn't much need of theoretical consideration, but if we are involved in musical theory we at first have to learn the knowledge important for the part of theory we are involved in.

Ix

Well just brushed up a little on the history of the Pan and it seems to me that there is quite a bit of conflict in its "short" history. (remind you of something ? )
If the sources I went to are right 1940s seems to be about the birth of the Pan as we know it, surrounded by fierce "local" resistance /annoyance at the noise !
Possibly a reason for it becoming a bit of a closed shop.
The slave background also has a strong influence in the music of this part of the world and was actively repressed by the British (before my time).
Paradoxically the British were instrumental (pun intended) in bringing the sound of the Pan to the world.

No, no, no.

The question is NOT about "knowledge" or "without knowledge" at all... it is about opinion and philosophy. That is why I explained my own opinion and philosophy at such length.

It is false to say that the term "handpan" is based on a lack of knowledge!

The term handpan is obviously based on domain knowledge. Indeed, why else would it have been coined in the first place?

"Handpan" critics, and "handpan" advocates, just have differing personal opinions on the *specific domain knowledge* that "should" be used to refer to Hang-like instruments.

Regardless of whether we "should" use it, it is accurate to call a Hang or Halo a handpan.

The word reflects not ignorance but *knowledge* of its origin. And, it reflects *correct* observation about the Hang's actual nature as an object, viewed outside of history.

To be direct: The Hang IS an instrument derived from the steelpan, still sharing its fundamental nature; and it IS played by the hand.

I am NOT saying the Hang is a steelpan, but it IS producing sound in the same way as the steelpan (i.e., it IS a steel idiophone with soundfields).

I understand very well how it is more, different, beyond, etc... but that's not the point.

The point is that no word in any real language can do more than reflect, crudely, the truth about the thing it refers to.

Names -- words -- do not work that way. They are not "meant" -- and more importantly, are not used, actually -- in this way.

Words are merely tokens we trade that reference objects, and ideas, that we as a collective share.

It is a mistake to ask (or try to make) a word do anything more than *allude* to the nature of the object it references. Most of the words we use all day don't even allude, they are simply "atomic" -- they cannot be analyzed to reveal truths about the object they refer to. They only refer.

As soon as they are coined, they become symbols. Tokens. Their meaning is in their use.

Put crudely, describing the nature of a thing is not the job of a word, but of a definition... an article... a book... a school of thought... a field of study... a culture... a species...

(Aside:

I am aware of a fictional language that *does* [putatively] use words that describe the full nature of the object described -- Entish in J.R.R. Tolkein's Lord of the Rings. The Ents, anthropomorphic trees, live a very long time, and perhaps for that rason, they take a long time to say anything... they are very precise in their names, and include the histories and specifics of each individual thing named...

Interestingly, contemporary cognitive science considers this kind of specificity counterproductive to flexible reasoning. General intelligence requires the ability to make generalizations and abstractions, for example, to allow one to make predictions about future events from past ones. If you want a poetic exploration of this insight, it is the basis for the Jorge Luis Borges story "Funes the Memorious", which is about a savant who after an accident has absolute and total recall... and is ruined by it.

End of aside )

The point of my last (long) post was precisely that the specific "knowledge" I infer you hope handpan users will receive, and then use to come up with a "better" name than "handpan," is not knowledge, in the sense of matters of fact. It is opinion -- about what facts are most important in deciding on the right name.

The problem is, we all have different opinions. Different feelings, different intuition.

But no feeling or intuition, or argument, is going to make 'handpan" less accurate.

Handpan is not inaccurate. It is just not sufficient, in some opinions, or is misleading, in others...

You may propose a more accurate alternative. If it is not a mouthful, who knows, it might "take root" (to use my metaphor)...

...but there are only so many "reasonable" options out there, and so far no one has found one as good as handpan.

I observe that Hanghang were not named "Hang" because it was the most accurate. A Hang is not a hand, of course. The word was however a lovely choice because it was a clue, to those who understand (Swiss? Bernese?) German anyway, about the most salient difference between the Hang and its ancestors.

Sadly, we do not have any similar, simple, feature to point to, that describes the family of handpans...

...except maybe that they are related to steelpans, and played with the hand...

***

As I mentioned before, if I write with passion on this subject, it is NOT with a raised voice, and not with negative emotion. My respect for you personally, Ix, Frank, etc., remains undiminished now matter much we disagree on this or any other matter.

I just want to make sure you know that...

aaron

I didn't read your whole posting because it is to long for me at 2:05pm. But perhaps your whole posting is based on a big misunderstanding. Therefor shortly my correction:

I never wrote that "the term "handpan" is based on a lack of knowledge".
I wrote about a "term that was spread in a little community without knowledge based discussion".

"Without a knowledge based discussion" is something completely different than "based on a lack of knowledge".

The substantive in my sentence is "discussion" not "knowledge". "Knowledge based" is an adjective to this substantive.

Ix

Hi,

on the website from the Trinidad and Tobago Ministry of Foreign Affairs the Steelpan is called an "National Instrument". This shows how important this instrument is for this country.

http://foreign.gov.tt/pages/about-trini ... eelpan.php

There is a organization called "PAN TRINBAGO (INC.)"
One of the objectives of this organization is:

"To preserve the steelpan as an indigenous musical art form and the National Musical Instrument of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago."

See on the website under Article 4 / Point 5

http://www.pantrinbago.co.tt/index.php? ... mitstart=1

Maybe it is a good idea to bring our questions to these organization?!

If you have a look at the website from this organization you see, that they speek the most time only from "Pan". Their name is "Pan Trinbago" and not "Steelpan Trinbago".

For me Handpan is a short version from Handsteelpan. And Pan is not only an instrument. It is a kind of lifestyle. Read the short aricle about the history of Pan and you find what I mean.

http://www.pantrinbago.co.tt/index.php? ... Itemid=100

The Pan had a big impact in the life from a lot of people. They made "war on the streets..." and later a kind of "war on the stage..."

I see a lot of more diffence in Hang, Bell , Halo on the one side and Steelpan or Pan on the other side as I see similarities.


Greetings
Frank

Hi, I am from South India, and I feel very disrespected by this conversation because there is not ONE MENTION of the Ghatam also being a significant influence in the history and development of the Hang. (OK, I'm not really from South India, but you get my point). The entire concept of Hemholtz resonance (which may be a key factor that distinguishes the subcategory) is only possible because of the influence of the Ghatam, which led to the creation of the internal cavity of the Hang.

Playing the Hang as part of my daily meditation, I consider it a part of my daily sustenance, or bread. Therefore, as I also speak Spanish, "Pan" is a very fitting term for my interpretation of the Hang, as Pan means bread in Spanish. This Hand-Bread brings life and vigor to my body and soul, and I do not use the word Pan to have anything to do with Trinidad or the English language whatsoever. We can see that language is not always fitting, and many words cross over with different meanings.

BTW, Aaron I love your last posts. However, even as an English speaker (with an english degree taboot), I too struggled to understand every phrase you wrote. I can only imagine what it would be like to translate your verbage into another language...

I think jokes with the word "disrespect" are not helpful in this discussion. My proposal is to "forbid" the word "disrespect" in this discussion. It leads discussion to a moral point of view and this is not an adequate point of view in this case.

Also that pan means bread in spanish isn't important, because nobody (except omrhythm) associates bread when he hear pan in conjunction with a metal instrument. He associates steelpan. Pan is also a greek god. But nobody thinks the "handpan" is a flute because the greek god plays one.

I think it is consense that the pan in handpan was chosen by the inventor of the term and those who use the term because it relates to the steelpan and nothing else.

And it would be helpfull if we don't dissipate our energies in this discussion with pseudo-arguments.

Ix

Until someone suggests a "better" alternative for handpan (which several of us have asked for numerous times), I see this as a circular conversation. (I will repeat this at the end of my post for emphasis.)

I like Aaron's metaphor of a word as a plant that has taken root. Sure, something may come along, whether this year or in 100 years that takes its place. However, so far, I have only heard the comments of those who are looking at the little plant and saying, "Oh, how did that get here? We don't want that growing here." But I'm not certain that someone can just pull that plant up by the roots to eradicate it. There is likely an underground system that is likely to survive, or perhaps numerous seeds have been planted in various places already. And some of us seem to like this plant, and are already giving it extra attention and fertilizing it!

The fact that pan is short for steelpan and also refers to culture is not problematic for me. Actually, it shows that people are clearly able to mentally understand one term having different meanings. No one would intuitively understand handpan. It would take some knowledge of or familiarity with the Hang/Halo.

The word "culture" is itelf problematic. I know of no "culture" that is controlled from the top-down. Some people distinguish between "Culture" (what the leaders or elite decide is worthy) and "culture" (which is what people practice). Furthermore, there are always variations within a culture. So, it is difficult to summarize what exactly a culture is.

The Hang has its own culture as well (some of us enjoy 7-pages of debate about what to name things . . .

I would guess that a music instrument theorist would name a group of instrument with a very different mode of thinking. S/he would attempt to be technically accurate (I give the example of "idiophone" which is not in most people's vocabulary). A music instrument theorist would prefer accuracy over brevity. If handpan becomes more widely used, it will be because players and people with whom they speak about this class of instrument find it useful. A short word has great advantage in being adopted. I would second Aaron's comment that a name is NOT a definition or complete explanation. It is largely a convenient way to refer to a thing or things.

I have no interest in asking any organization or person if they give their "permission." This is not the way language grows (as Aaron has eloquently explained). It is the people who use the term who will decide if it is useful or not.

I don't mind a bit of humor here and there, particularly if someone makes that clear in their posting.

Until someone suggests a "better" alternative for handpan (which several of us have asked for numerous times), I see this as a circular conversation.

Hi,

At the end we have the Handpan and the Hang? I think an inventor and artist know what he made. In the case of the Hang the inventor (Panart) say, this is not a Handpan.
If Kyle Cox called his Halo a Handpan, he want to stand under a different "general term."
But maybe this is not so wrong?! If you see the history of the Hang you see clear a direction. The Hang has more and more distance from the "world of Pan" with any generation.
It is an instrument for the individum and not for an collective (as a Pan is).

So I understand the discussion from a few people who want different instruments with different scales who work together. They want a Hang, a Halo what work with this Hang, a Bell with a compatible scale to this Halo and the Hang and so on and on...
They want the collective back. They want more the "steelpan world" without playing a steelpan, of course.

The Integral Hang is on a different way. If Panart say a Hang is not a Hangdrum, a lot of people agree and on the other side they call the Hang a Hangdrum on their websites.
But this dont make a Hang to a Hangdrum.
If some people use in the future the "term" Handpan for an Hang they be only under a misapprehension. But this makes not realy a Handpan from a Hang.

If Kyle want to call the Halo a Handpan he can do it. I hope that he can explain it the steelpan tuners in Trinidad. Because he must do it. With "Pan" he want to be back in the collective.

Greetings
Frank

Hahahaha. Sorry!

The REALLY sad thing is, I usually have spent some time editing to simplify and clarify my language. You can only imagine what the UNEDITED version looked like... :O

Btw Ix, I hear you. Fortunately most of what I wrote is still relevant -- just please ignore the parts that challenge a claim you were not making.

(In English there is an idiom for this situation, "straw man" -- the metaphor means, instead of fighting your real opponent, you set up a "straw man" -- an effigy made of straw, like a scarecrow -- and attack that instead. The "straw man" is much easier to fight (debate) because it is not a real person, it is a simplification and caricature... )

I agree with the idea that until someone comes up with an attractive alternative, I don't have much more to add.

My position is I hope pretty clear by now.

aaron

contemporary handpans?

the hang is a handpan made from pang?

I think you hav'nt got the difference between a consideration and a circular conversation. Having not the answer means not that the question is meaningless. In most cases you have the question before the answer and between the question and the answer lay consideration, research, discussion etc.

If you got the feeling of a circular discussion the reason could be that no one really answers to some thoughts and arguments.

I think the first we have to do to really understand what we are naming is to understand what a Hang is and what a steelpan is. I feel a lack of such an understanding here. For example: The argument that pan is a culture is replied only with formal thoughts, what a culture is. But it was not the argument that pan is a culture but that these culture has specific properties that stand in contrast to the Hang. We have to discuss these properties if we discuss the culture argument, not the question what a culture is.

Ix

So older hanghang, being directly descended from, and capable of sounding similar to steel pan, might share the same space in the grand scheme of musical instrument classification. But the newer Integral hang, while sharing the same lineage, should be in a class by itself because it sounds like nothing else on Earth?

Hi,

older Hanghang also dont sound like a Steelpan. I never said, that the Hang should be a class by itself. In my last posting, I explained that the new "Handpans" would maybe stand in a own class.
The Hang is not a Handpan. That is totally clear.

Greetings
Frank

Its totally clear only for you and maybe Ix, not for rest of the world (at least the "little" world in this topic)

Hi,

do you agree, that maybe the inventor of an instrument know what he made?

Frank

Do you agree in that the inventor of a instrument can´t control and categorize the language?
People look a word they need for express themselves, in this case the term adopted by people (again except you and maybe Ix) is "handpan".

Aaron made a very good explanation. In my own case, when I say "handpan" I see in my mind a hang, among other instruments, thats is.

Again, I see we go in circles forever. Frank, better if you reread the whole thread, I think the opinion of the mayority is crystal clear. If you don´t like that opinion, the best you can do is bring from the hat another good name that can change peoples mind...

Hi,

@synthi. I think you dont read the whole thread. Make a google for "Handpan" and you see more clear.

Yes, the inventor of an instrument dont make a language. But he has a lot of more knowledge about everything what has to do with Hang and Steelpan as the whole community together. (Or can anybody at the moment make a Hang? Has anybody the knowledge and the skills?)

Kyle Cox call his instrument a Handpan. Ok. He must know what he make and what kind of instrument he has.
Felix from Panart told me a few weeks ago, that a Hang is not a Handpan and he explained me some reasons.

Kyle Cox try to copy the Hang and after that, he tell the community that this instruments are Handpan???!!!
He copy the Hang and after that he want to dictate a "generic term". ?
Sorry, that is for me more than a little bit strange.
And the community say: "Oh, yes. Handpan sound very nice."
I agree, that Handpan is a nice word. But i cant ignore, that Panart say: "A Hang is not a Handpan". And I cant ignore, that there is a standart for Pan. And I cant ignore, that PAN is not only an instrument. PAN is something like a lifestyle.

So, if Halo and Bell are Handpan than they want to stand in another category as the Hang. Maybe this is not so bad and wrong. See my posting before.

Maybe for you I go in circles. But only because of better presence in the Internet and better "promotion" wrong thinks are not suddenly true.

Greetings
Frank

-I don´t mind who was the one who bring the term "handpan"

-I don´t need to google the word "handpan" you tried that but means nothing for me.

-For me a "pan" is diferent than a "handpan"

-You say that Panart told you the Hang is no a handpan. I have no words for Panart, and I have not details or reasons about why they don´t like that word. Maybe they missunderstand the word in this especific context

-I`m not posting again in this thread becasue is absolutely nosense

Frank, I don´t want to be rude, but please see the reality. There is a consesus about the word "handpan" (again except you and maybe Ix). If you want to change the word, bring an alternative, otherwise, people will continue using the term "handpan", but not for make you angry, but because we need a word for refering to especific group of instruments, and thats the word we use.