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I'm not sure if "prototype" is the right word. In his official update, he is only offering a 7-note Pygmy.

From conversations with Kyle, I have full confidence that he is being totally forthcoming with any concerns he has about any instrument that he is selling, and that if he does sell an instrument with concerns, then it is because the buyer has requested it after being aware of the situation.

In reality, buyers may have a stronger interest in a particular scale or tonal range that may outweigh other factors (such as the interference issue).

Kyle believed he could do some things to correct the interference, but it turned out he couldn't. As an alternative, he is offering a total of 8 different sound models, half with 7 notes, and the other half with 8. I think most people can find a reasonable alternative. Maybe some people are disappointed, but they can still get something they want.

I would also strongly encourage anyone who has paid a deposit and is not happy with the choices available to discuss the concerns directly with Kyle. He wants everyone to be satisfied.

If there are instances of someone getting a Halo and it having problems that they did not know about, this would be a different problem. But I haven't heard anyone saying anything like this yet, and it would be better to not assume these are the concerns if we don't know about them.

Since PanArt states that the IH is the complete evolution of their work, then I concur that PanArt sold over 5000 prototypes in the 1st and 2nd generations. I bought 7 hanghang in Bern at one time in November 2006. And I played over 40 hanghang when I was there. Every single one of them had a "flaw" that made it different. I chose one hanghang with IH tuning that has a VERY VERY big "problem" because when you strike the Ding, the harmonics and tone of the A automatically come flying out of the tone field because of very bad "energy transfer". Well, I chose this for a reason, and I would not trade it for 5 IHs from PanArt because it has very special properties, and happens to be an interference that works extremely well with my playing style.

Kyle's instruments are "good enough" in my opinion. I think the only reason that Kyle had some doubts about the "perfection" of the prototypes that he sold on the market was because of the INTENSE pressures and expectations of Hang owners who already know the instrument and want his first models to sound like PanArts 2nd and 3rd models. Not so easy, so he had some doubts about the interferences, etc, and wanted to back track again to make sure that they were even better. It was criticism like yours Frank that has made Kyle very cautious about every single thing that he does. Where on the other hand, PanArt tests something new with a Hang, for example, in the middle of the 2nd generation production. The entire series of 2nd generation Hanghang was AN EXPERIMENT! One instrument got a torch taken to it, another had a different series of heatings between tunings. Another portion of the series was coated and brushed with Brass. Then they turned the tone fields, etc etc. They were experimenting all the time. Some of them did not come out all that good, but they were still sold on the market. How come you do not judge PanArt for putting "poor quality proto-types" on the market?

Frank, I do not think you are a Jerk. But I do think that your questions, comments, and opinions are HIGHLY critical of Kyle, Kyle's words, and Kyle's actions, and you do not offer the same critical eye towards your beloved PanArt. Whenever Kyle breathes, you are there to make sure that everyone knows that his breath does not sound like a Hang. You just need to stop being so critical, ESPECIALLY since, as you say, you cannot make a judgement of the Halo fully without having one in your lap. Kyle has told everyone that if they are not happy with the Halo, then he will refund their money. (Please don't quote me on that one, but I think that if the customer is THAT UNHAPPY, then Kyle will do whatever it takes, even if giving back their money is necessary). SO, I suggest to you Frank, that you should BUY A HALO, and if you do not like it, then send it back and get a refund. It would be helpful if you stopped looking at every single action from Pantheon with a microscope. We can look at your actions with a microscope too. It is not a very nice feeling...

Peace to all...

Hi,

@om

I never saw a Hang where was "Prototype" engraved.

Yes, you are right. Panart do experiments all the time. That is why they make periodically "Hangruhe".
Panart sold their first Hanghang for 300-400 Euro. Kyle ask for his first modell 1500 USD.

Yes, there was inflation. But not in this dimension.

The next difference. All second Generation Hanghang (maybe there are a handfull exceptions?) have been sold in this way:
Panart build a lot of Hanghang. People come to the Hanghaus and than they had to choose between 40-60 Hanghang.
All Hanghang are unique. At my visits in the Hanghaus I also test a lot of and some I liked more than others. But I had the choice between a lot of ready!!! Hanghang.

Maybe my keynote in my posting was not so clear. Kyle told in his update, that he find problems after! gluing the two halfes.
He start to collect money as a point where he obviously not knew how the ready product sound.
This is what I dont understand. I think if you collect money, you must have first an ready to sell product. Or not?
And now I see, that people payed money and wait for an Halo, and all what I see are Halo "Prototypes".
Why Kyle dont say: "Ok, this is my Halo at the moment". ?

An unique piece of "art" is ever in evolution. Panart Hang is on a journey and there is no point where the Hang is ready.

To ask for 1500 USD is only possible because of the popularity of Hang. At the point Kyle is with his work Panart dont ask for so much money.
And if you sell an product for 1500 USD you must know, that people look carefully what the quality from this instrument is. And for 1500 USD it is understandable, that people ask for a similar quality as the 2 or 3 generation Hang.

Kyle made in my eyes a big mistake. This is what I want to say. He brought oneself under the pressure from the market.
At the point he start to collect money from a lot of people he came in a situation where he must make Halos for sell. He collect money from 250 people and told, that the next period for prepayment is in the next year.
This means for the people that Kyle want to make 1 or 2 Halos per day. He has no experience with this, but he brought oneself in this situation.
And next year all the Halos came back for a tuning. You remember, that Kyle sayed a regular tuning is a must...
I dont see, that Kyle has time to make experiments. He has an problem with a interference and he has not the time to understand why! he has the problem and master to fix it.
Instead of this he avoid the problem.

And here I point in some postings that people see this.
It is much better we have a good Halo in the future. It is better for the people who want to play it, it is better for Kyle, it is better for the people who listen to the instrument.

If Kyle is confident to sell the Halo, he must not print "Prototype" on the instrument. But it is maybe a kind of "insurance" for him?

So, i stop at this point.

Greetings
Frank

I would hardly say that Kyle "avoided" the problems of the Halo.

It is also *not* accurate to state that yearly tuning is a "must."

There are numerous differences between the market for a hang in 2001 or 2002 and for a halo in 2009. The current great demand for the hang is probably the most important, and yes it most likely had an impact on the initial selling price of the halo, as well as what people were willing to pay. 250 people made their deposits because they thought the halo was worth it. In the next month or two, as significant numbers of halos get to their new owners, we will have a much better idea of what actual halo owners think of their instruments. Those who also own a hang will have a good perspective, and I look forward to hearing more from them (and sharing my own thoughts).

Hi,

I quote the Halo website:

"Proper and regular tuning is a must to ensure the longevity of your Halo. It is recommended your Halo be tuned once a year...."

http://halo.pantheonsteel.com/AboutTheHalo.aspx



Frank

Though PANArt may dispute it, I think we've heard many, many samples of Hanghang that were in need of tuning. It's my belief that a Hang, left to it's own, would probably not go out of tune. But as these are works of art people actually use, even more than regularly, I think that most Hanghang will eventually need some attention over time as well.

Hi,

yes, i agree that we see some Hanghang out of tune. In a lot of from this videos you can see also, why the Hang is out of tune. The people play much to hard.
It could be that other reasons also bring a Hang out of balance with time. But definitive not "yearly" any Hang.
Panart is in a different situation. There are two people and they are not under the pressure from the market so much.
They take the time they need for experiments to make the Hang better.
They do the work and after they have finished a lot of Hanghang they invite people to buy one.
At the moment I see, that Kyle had promised a lot of Halos and next year he want to tune the Halos and he want to make new Halos. I dont see, if this could work under the pressure from the market. In this situation brought Kyle oneself.
Panart is on a point, where they can make very high quality Hanghang. A Hang needs three month before it leaves the Hanghouse. Not all the time they work on this Hang. But it needs this time. Panart made instruments and after a few month they see, how many they have and can make for the next people who can buy one.
Because Hanghang dont need a regular tuning every year, they must not tune so many Hanghang.
With the maintanance plan Kyle is in a situation to tune every year all the Halos.
In the first year the 250 he want to make this year. One year later the Halos from this year and let me say 300 more from the year later. The next year he must tune maybe 500-600 Halos. The year after 900 Halos, than 1200 and so on and so on.
I hope for Kyle, that not all buyers want this maintanance plan and send the Halo every year. Or he must begin to search people who can tune the Halo. Maybe ask Bruce Copley?
Ok, sorry that was only a joke from a Jerk.

What I want to say is, that he is under a big pressure with his actions he made oneself. To make "art" in such a situation is at least delicate.

Again. I dont post such statements because I am happy about the situation. I maybe can open some eyes from people who want a Halo and maybe such postings bring also Kyle back on a more realistic point. I can say, that I have this feeling from speaking with people who have a lot of experience with this kind of art and the pressure of the market.
At my last visit in Bern Felix go in his workshop to tune a new Hang. He was in his workshop and I listened to the rhythm of his hammer. After maybe one hour he came out of the workshop and I could see that he did a very concentrated , hard work. This every day under pressure and tune a lot of Hanghang. I could not imagine that.



Greetings
Frank

Hi ,

This topic startet with the question, what a Hang seperates from Halo or Bell.

Here is one more notice. I heard, that Kyle use a total different technic to make the blank shape from the Halo.

The Hang blank shape is deep-drawn. The Halo blank shape is "spinned" form.
If you watch the pictures from the Halo you see, the striation around the Halo. (I hope "striation" is the right translation for "Rillen".

Such a metall sheet must have total different characteristics and qualities as a deep-drawn sheet.
It has an big impact on the sound. And I could imagine, that this has also an impact on the tuning stability.

So we have two big different differences only on the beginning process of making Hang and Halo.
The different material (Pang for Hang) and Kyles sheet and a different technic to make the blank shape.

This is only a technicality, but another aspect. If I want to copy something, I must have the same or realy similar raw material and a very similar development to have at the end a copy or a similar result.

The more important differences are not so easy to see for an layman as me. Here we must have a look on the story of Panart, the evolution of the Hang and we must first find out, what a Hang mean for any of the players.

I think we all agree that the sound from Hang and Halo has easy to hear differences.

A few days ago I had a good discussion about "Isolation and Integration". I thought about the name "Integral Hang" and understand better, what this means.
The Hang is not an instrument with clear and well-defined (isolated) notes. I hear much more as a well tuned fundamental note and the tuned overtones.
The whole instrument is singing! And this in a very fine and nice balance.
The notes are not isolated . They are integrated in the big context of the whole instrument. So it is not an "Isolated Hang" it is an "Integral Hang".
A lot of times, I playing my Hang people wonder, and ask me if there is realy nothing else than the Hang what makes this sound.
There are a lot of sound layers singing together a music. And this music could touch people very deep.

If I listen to the Halo videos, I hear more well-defined (isolated) notes. This makes this instrument maybe in the future more interesting for people who are searching the "drum" in this instrument?

The sound is for me personally the most important aspect of the Hang. The playing technic I use is for me the incidental result of that, what I see and hear in the Hang.
I have the feeling, that a lot of Hang players are searching for another percussion instrument. They play percussion patterns on the Hang and the joy is to play in this style. A lot of players on youtube play "over the limit". The notes are "screaming".
I understand the fun behind that! I am also an percussion player.
For me personally this qualitys of the Hang are not the qualitys what makes a Hang so special. To copy this aspect from the Hang is not so hard.
Copy the form, tune a few notes and the "jam session" can start.

A few people play on two or three Hanghang and make compositions. For me are a lot of nice instruments with chromatic scales in the world. There are a lot of nice metallophones for example.
Why not only find out, what the few notes on the Hang have to say?

I stop for the moment. It is not easy for me to find the best words in english and I need a lot of time for only a short text. More coming soon.

Greetings
Frank

Hi,

i found a picture from and short explaining from this "spin form sinking" I spoke in my last posting.

http://hotpans.se/pan/tuning/developments17_methods.php

Quote: "The spin forming also makes small circular scratches in the metal, which some tuners consider to be fatal for the later grooving and backing..."

These small scratches are that what I called "striation" on my last topic.

It is likely, that Kyle use a similar technic to make the Halo blank shape.
Hang blank shape is deep drawn.

I dont judge the process from Kyle as good or bad. This is only to show differences.

Frank

Of course, Frank.

I wouldn't say that the halo has "scratches." They are more like rounded ridges (or grooves). In some places they are more noticeable (by hand and eye) than in others.

I am also not sure how much the construction of steelpans applies to making such instruments as the hang and halo. I'm sure many things do apply, but perhaps some do not. I also think there may be alternative processes that could possibly produce acceptable and similar results. For me, the sound is primary. Of course production methods and physical characteristics may explain the sound properties, but they are a step removed from the experience of hearing the instruments.

2 Funky,
as far as i know halo is also deepdrawn.
only a Gu side is rolled in with help of spinning process.
these lines you disscuss are to rub the halo with fingers to get the sound. in a way a singing bowl in rubed.
personaly i don't understand your position Funky. please leave your comments until you know the facts
of production or get a chance to play the instrument yourself.
why do you mislead people with your amateurish conclusions?

The Halo is spun, both top and bottom.

Frank, since you quoted the article, please explain why "some tuners" (and perhaps you could clarify which ones, how many, etc.) do not like spinning (for steelpans, at least).

And please explain why this is considered "fatal."

Hi,

@todd

What i posted was a qoute from the Steelpan website. I only qoute one complete phrase. The reason was, that there is the explanation why on the Halo are these "lines" or what the website called "scratches".
I only explained, that the beginning from the Halo and the beginning from the Hang are different.

I spoke also with somebody who made a "few" steelpans and he explained me the difference between "deep drawing" and "spin forming" and why this affect the sound.

I said in my posting, that this is only one more technical difference. Thats it.
"Om" ask in this topic, what Halo and Hang separate.
I ask him, what he mean with "separate" exact. No answer.
So, I think he mean what are differences. And if you want to make something similar or copy it, a closer look on the making process ist helpfull.

I hope this answer your question.

Frank

Here are two Wikipedia articles about metal spinning:
English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_spinning
German: [url]http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drücken_(Umformen)[/url]

Ix

For this bit of information to have credence pertaining to this topic one would have to consider both the halo and hang as steel pans (or at least in the steel pan family). Have you changed your mind on the subject Frank?

Hi,

I dont understand what you mean. Sorry. I only find a picture and explaining of the technic "spin forming".
You can make steelpan raw shape also with this technic. It is likely, that the Halo made in a similar way. What has this to do whith changing my mind?

Frank

Hi,

I read the last days comments from people who got their Halo.
I read, that some people find the Halo is more "drum like" as the Hang. I thought about that the last days.
It seems, that a lot of people are searching for a good kind of "handdrum".
Yes, in this point the Hang maybe failed in comparison to an Halo.
It seems for me, that the Halo is more a "drum" as the Hang.
The Halo is bigger. The Halo is deeper. The Halo is louder and you can hit the Halo harder. This is better for percussion playing.
I hear a very unpleasing "Tank drum sound" around the dome in the middle of the Halo. (on Hang called Ding). Maybe people like this sound. I like this not. The Halo sound more metallic as the Hang. Again a matter of taste. I dont like it much.

It seems, that we have in the future the "American Handpans".
The Hang is called from a few people the "old Handpan". This remember me a little bit on "old europe".
I think it is only a question of time and Trinidad tell the people in America what they think about the term "Handpan".
I see, that a few people dont care about that. They want only fun.
Bigger, better, Burger King....

I hope, that the people in Trinidad see and know, that the Hang is on another way. I hope, that people who play the Hang dont call it Handpan. I will do what I can to explain what are the differences between Hang and Handdrums. Hang and Handpan.
Hang is for me a "way of living" . Pan is also a "way of living". But it is a different way. The way of Hang helps to find the balance , the calmness and peace for my soul.

The drummer in me see the options inside the Halo. No question. A cool percussion instrument. One more in the world.
But why it needs a copy from the Hang shape for that sound? I dont understand this. Maybe I have not enough technical background?


Tommorow I travel to Panart. I hope, that I find a few answers on my questions.

Greetings
Frank

Hi Frank.
I hope you can get some clear explanations from PANart about all the matters that have troubled this and other forum matters.
I am sure more direct answers and explanations from Felix and Sabine will show that there is more hart and less animosity / anger behind all the problems.
Have a good journey and meeting.

Wow. We can stereotype you and your culture as well. There is a deep cloudy history to draw from, filled with control and brainwashing. If you choose, we will do so. This is one of the most offensive things you have written on any forum to date, and it shows your ignorance about American society as a whole.

Yes, you are correct. You do not have enough technical background. Technique opens doors or perception and creates a wider pallette of color/emotion.

Music=Life

OM