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Hi,

I am very upset with the fact that the promised scales are not beeing produced. It is a typical american behaviour (sorry guys) to promote something that is not already in a stage of production.

When was the halo presented? MONTH ago, nearly 1 or 2 years I think. Kyle recorded a video and knows that one note was bad and hoped to get it tuned. How long would that process beeing taken? 1 Week? Is the pressure of us so high, that he cant wait this time to figure it out? The second generation will sureley have other dimension to get that sound issue fixed. But is gluing the things together not a process, that sould be done in an earlier state?

I am number 25 or so, and really NOT happy about this situation. I now have to decide which scale. So, my prefered scale is an 8 tone Ake Bono, and I already payed some bucks for it. 8 tones- absoluteley necessary for me, since my hang has only 7 and one tone brings much more varieties.

I really don´t what to do right now. I like Kyle and he has created a really very very good sounding instrument, no doubt about it.


Epi

Hi Epi,

I can understand your frustration. (Ake Bono was my first choice as well). But you can't really say this is an "American" behaviour. Hasn't Luis posted a (very extensive) list of scales that he is offering as well? I am almost positive that he has not created a Bell for each of these tunings he is "advertising". And if I remember correctly, he is not an American either.

Again, I understand your frustration, but I don't think being American has anything to do with it. That is very stereotypical.

From my perspective, I see that Kyle was able to produce the scale he intended, but was not 100% satisfied with the result. In turn, he has tried to offer more scales initially beyond the ONE that was offered to help compensate.

There may be many here that can speculate how hard or easy it may be to do what Kyle, Luis or Felix is doing, but I don't think anyone, other than the creators can have a full appreciation of everything that is being done to bring these instruments to the public. We cannot possibly foresee the difficulties that may arise through the production process. We only see the result, and are able to make quick judgement then.

In all fairness, the creators are doing everything within their power to make the best possible instrument they can, for the waiting public. I know that Kyle is more than a fair person, and if anyone is unhappy with his work, he will most assuredly do everything he can to make them happy. And I can assure you, it is impossible to make everyone happy.

Until I can create a Hang, or HandPan, I will have a hard time being the judge of the work any of the creators do. I can only say that I am happy with my HALO, and look forward to hearing it develop as time goes on. As it has only been 2 1/2 years since Kyle and Jim have started this endeavour, I am quite happy with the result of their labors.

It makes me sad that you had your heart set on the eight tone Ake Bono and it's not going to happen :( However, I don't know if you listened to Kyle's update in addition to reading through the written one, it sounds to me like he is extremely eager to work something out if you're unhappy/unsatisfied with the results of their work. They made a mistake and owned up to it, and I think the fact that they're not willing to release an instrument that has a truly bad note is a good thing. Kyle stated in the update:

"I would like to go on the record to say that I personally apologize for the fact the first generation HALO will not having the exact scale we advertised; and that I am willing and eager to work with you to make that right. Your total satisfaction with your HALO is our first priority."

I have not actually met Kyle, Jim or anyone affiliated with Pantheon Steel, but if you are truly upset with this news, you should bring it to their attention. In my opinion, they seem genuinely remorseful that they put the initial audio and video recordings of the Ake Bono HALO with the bad note out and now want to do their best to resolve any issues/gripes this brings up. I believe you should let Kyle know that this is really a problem for you and ask him what the best course of action is.

A couple of quick comments...

First,

for anyone who doesn't know, the "Aaron Ximm" that Kyle mentions is me (aaron_in_sf). I'm the one who sampled Danny's video (without his knowledge), and I made those mock-ups originally for my own private use, to help think about scales.

I am the first to say -- loud and clear -- that they do not sound like a Halo will, or should...

...but I do think they are undeniably much better than nothing (and better than some other instrument like the guitar I was using), at getting a sense of the "vibe" of each scale.

There is no music, no life in those samples! They are cardboard cutouts.

But if you "squint your ears" you can get a glimpse of how a Halo in those tunings will "seem." Sort of.

For the record, I originally shared those privately with Kyle to help illustrate a dialog I was having with him about my own scale choice. Making them was my idea. But he agreed with me that they were useful tool for talking about tunings... useful enough that they were worth sharing for that purpose (only).

Second,

I would like to respond to Frank's valid and serious question of why, if Kyle believes there are sonic advantages to a seven-tone tuning, would he make and sell any eight-tone Halos? He asks, is this not "wrong" or questionable in some regard?

Having spoken with Pantheon a lot during the past week, as that decision was finalized, I would like to offer one answer.

There *are* people on his customer list who will be perfectly happy to knowingly sacrifice some amount of sonic excellence, to have the musical advantages of an eight-tone tuning. People like *me.* (Many will take the other path!)

I haven't decided myself on what tuning I will ask for, but I have been almost exclusively considering the eight-tone tunings, even though I heard Kyle's opinion on the advantages of a seven-tone tuning last week, before this announcement today.

My own case is one that I think is not that uncommon. I hope to get a Bell from Luis in a complementary tuning and play duets with my family. I have faith that this should work well, as from the existing evidence the Bell will be vaguely similar to older-generation Hanghang. I will be the first to say that this is pure faith at this point. "Faith" meaning, belief without evidence. I can live with that though. It is a gamble, but I play willingly!

For me, it is a high priority to get two instruments that can play together in the tunings and moods that I desire. Higher quite possibly than getting the very last bit of "quality" in fact, I think... (but nothing is settled until I choose my Halo. )

Fwiw I also know that Kyle also believes that he is keeping a promise to his customers by offering eight-tone tunings. Many people here have already talked about how much they want those. I am confident that he would not offer eight-tone tunings *just* because of that "promise." Fortunately, I know that he is happy that they do "work," though -- *because* of that "promise".

The bottom line is that in my opinion, Kyle is doing the best thing by letting people like me make an *informed* decision for ourselves.

He is trying to be completely clear that he thinks there are reasons to take a seven-tone tunings.

But he also makes it clear that there are also different, valid, reasons someone might want an eight-tone tuning -- reasons I can say are true for me personally.

--

I believe that this issue -- of whether it is good to offer multiple tunings, and the trade off of an eight-tone tuning vs a seven-tone tuning -- illustrates a difference in what PANArt and Pantheon are trying to do.

I understand, Frank, why for you prefer and champion the PANArt model. I would summarize it crudely like this: always evolve towards the best-possible Hang, according to real experienced qualities, even at the "expense" (sic) of giving up things that some players would prefer.

Just to be clear: I have myself a complete and profound respect for that model, and practice -- above and beyond my love of the instrument itself!

But! I also think the Pantheon model as I understand it has just as much integrity, it it is just oriented in a different direction. I would state it crudely like this: make the best instrument we can, *and* offer our players some of the choices that PANArt does not *because* of their different, singular focus.

I could imperfectly summarize that difference in approach by saying, PANArt knows what they want and believe in, and they offer it to us as a gift we can accept if we like it. Pantheon offers us a modest choice among what they *can* make, and informs us up front what the trade-offs are, among the options we can choose.

I'm just an outsider. But that's how I see it.

--

May I propose what I think it will be most useful for US to do?

We, the ones that know the differences between a Hang, a Halo, eventually I hope a Bell... in philosophy, "quality", sound, waiting times, company ethos and practices, etc., etc., etc..

I propose that we should try to help people who do not know these things to become informed, so that each person can make the right decision for themselves, based on the many factors they might consider important.

E.g., we could ask, what is important to you? Do you play other instruments they you want to harmonize with? Do you want an instrument to give as a gift, and need one before a certain *year*? Are you enchanted by the other-worldly magic of the Hang, and do you want to try to get one, no matter any other factor?

Each of these might suggest a different but completely valid relationship to hold in my opinion. Yet they might lead us to give different advice.

In other words, I think "the best" is actually a multidimensional and sometimes subjective thing, not a single goal...

I say "we" meaning this community, of Hang players (soon to include also Halo players).

Perhaps this site is not the best place for that "education" to take place -- it is after all a Hang forum.

But I hope there is room for that to take place here, in the "world of sheet steel sounds" section.

Peace to all!

Aaron

thanks Aaron !
good clarification !


peace

Amazing post Aaron, I enjoyed reading it

Hi,

a lot of to read for me this morning. I have not much time, because I go playing my Hang in a Hospital today for very sick people.
So, i tell you step by step what I think about all your postings.

First I qoute Aaron,

yes, this is in the first sense a Hang Forum. But it is more than important to speak about instruments who have a similar shape as a Hang and it is very interesting to talk about all the other instruments made from metall sheet.
This is why we have these "world of sheet steel sounds" .

So, here is a good place for discussion about the Halo, the Bell, the Caisa and so on and on...

Greetings
Frank

Hi all,

I do not have time to read all the new post this morning, but first, I APOLOGIZE for my statement that this is an american behavior.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I work for a canadian company. And I know how our product management is announcing products... So sorry for my statement.

And I know that all the "new ones" are really working hard and they have my deepest resptect on what they are doing. But never sell a car without testing it....

I´ll be later back to you.


Epi

Good morning,



Yes, Lluis posted a list of scales. But there is a big difference. Lluis dont collect money, before he show the instrument people can buy. I hope this is also in the future the case.
If you look what big companys does it is the same as Kyle has done. He has no ready product to sell and make big promotion. That is understandable.
But the point I dont understand is, that he made a initial video with ake bono and announce that the Halo is ready and start to collect money while he know that this Halo has a problem.
I dont say that he make this with a bad intention.
I think he realy has beliefed that he can fix the problem , before he must give the first Halo to a new owner.
The part, where he explained that the problem was after gluing together the two halfes ist more than interesting.
I speak with a steelpan maker these days about that. This man also know a little bit about building Hang. (not Panart) He explained me a little bit about what he think about the new update from Kyle where he explained the different scales.

Kyle think like a steelpan maker. He has not realy realized how this sculpture work together and the result we see now. He thougt that everything is good before he bring the two halfes together and so he thought it works.
I am very courious what he find out in the future. Maybe the deep C Ding is the next? Who knows?

He used no real recordings for the scales, because he has no Halo to do that. I am sure. He speak from the Halo as an artform and allow to show the buyer to listen an electronic sample in this quality to bring an idea how the scales work on a Halo.
I hope he dont find out to much surprises when he must make a lot of instruments in the promised scales.

I was in the Hanghouse two an half years ago to pick up my first Hang. In the evening we make a campfire and i talked with Felix. He told about the time where he made steelpan and that he heard about that people could bring the sound in a kind of organ.
(he means samples and syntheziser) . But this man with the hammer looked very irritated at this moment.
In the newest letter from Panart Felix said, that it is not possible to catch the magic of an Hang in recordings. And he means Cd´s made in studios with good microphones .
Why I tell this?
I dont understand Kyle. Is he an artist as he said? Why an artist allow to make samples from only one Halo (these are bad samples, because not every note is sampled. You must transform tones.) to show the buyers what scales are possible?
Yes, he said these is not the Halo and dont reflect the real sound. I cant imagine Felix that he do this with a Hang.
Here we see two totally different philosophys.

I dont say, this is typical for american companys. European companys do the same and Asian and so on.
I have the feeling that all the first Halo buyers are part of a big Beta Test.
A lot of companys bring not ready products to the people. This is in these days normal. They promise updates and so you can download the newest software for your DVD, car and so on and on.
But this dont work with an instrument.

And this is the point from Epicure. Kyle has promised an instrument and began to collect money at an point where he dont has these instrument ready. He made a video with an instrument what was not the instrument he could sell. He knows at this moment he made the video that something is wrong.
A lot of people applaud and the few who say: "listen carefully. There is something not in balance..." are the kill-joy.

I hope and wish Kyle that he has not to much problems in the future. It is better for all people that we have a good Halo. Dont think my posting is full of "schadenfreude". I only want to help to see both sides of the coin.

If something sound negative in my posting it is maybe the result from my problems with the english language. In some cases it is maybe the result from negative chain of events.

More coming soon.

Greetings
Frank

@aaron and funky....

wonderful perspectives from both of you. Perhaps these discussions will become inconsequential , once HALOs (and Bells) start appearing on laps of new owners.

As for the "Beta testing".... I am more than happy to participate.

Yes, why not? But normally, you don´t pay for a beta software or beta product. There are cases, where people are getting payed

For me it is a fact, so clear like crystal water: do not announce, neither sell a produkt (even asking for a prepayment) if your product is not ready. This should be a business conduct, valid all over the world. Do not do that. Do not do that. Do not do that (like Bart Simpsong writing it to the blackboard).

So, enough chastisement, lets look to the future and we should thing, how to get out of this situation. I do need 8 tones, so I am thinking of asking for a Halo with body resonance (could sound quite interesting...) or an other scale. I will see.

Cheers
Epi

Mrs. Müller ask: "Do you want a cup of tea or a cup of coffee?".

Mr. Müller answered: "Yes"

i was in a big hurry and wanted to let people know that i had read the thread and enjoyed the disussion.

i am again in a big hurry so cannot expand further.... but i will 'soon'

@Epicure....juste to remember, PANArt stop the production of the 8th notes Hang because there is some discordance with differents notes and they "move" in time.
It's was not a "stability" instrument. In the same spirit, they stop the production of many more ancient tunings because for the same bad effects in the sound production of the Hang.

Like Funky says, Kyle work in a very different way like Sabina and Felix and don't understand sound problems creatte in the two hemisphere.
Just to remember, the Hang is produce by two poeple with 25 years of expérience in the metal work and the Hang is the result of this expérience.
They work equally with scientist, sound spécialist and some others engineer.

I appreciate the work of Kyle but i think the Halo is just the beginning; but paid this price for this level of sound instrument.....it's not right at my eyes.

The HALO is the HALO, the Hang is the Hang, and the Bell......we see in the future.

Sorry for my approximate english, the difficult is "use the right words" to explain the "pirit" of the mind....not easy.

Yes, I know, and thats the reason why Kyle enlarges the diameter of the Halo. There are plenty Hang around the planet with 8 tones that sound very good. See Manu Delago, Andi Steil, ...

I need one more tone!

Epi

Indeed, we should look to the future.

As for Kyle's business practices, I believe that he is trying to satiate a hungry public, AND maintain a certain level of quality. Is it right to sell an instrument, before it is ready? I do not think so. But, the instrument reached a level, and people were asked if they chose to place a deposit. This action was to help get the initial costs of the bulk metal in, so general production could begin in a timely manner. If one finds this distasteful, they have full freedom to wait to see the results of the work. No one was coerced into placing their deposits. Some people perhaps have more faith in the product, whereas others may need more proof to justify a purchase. There is nothing wrong with that. Again, we are all still able to make the choice whether it is worth it to chance or not.

After playing the initial HALO, I have full confidence that it will satisfy most that choose to have it. If it is comparable to a Hang, is left to opinion, of course. But I feel that it has created it's own spot among these types of instruments. I am sure that most will be delighted with it. I look forward to it's evolution, now that the HALO is on production. And yes, it WILL evolve, just as the Hang before it. This to me, is only natural. You can only gain certain knowledge through experience.

In the future, I am sure issues of deposits, and faith, or beta testing, or even evolution will not matter as much, as the public will be well exposed to the HALO by then. Perhaps at that point, meaningful discussion about the HALO will be more about composition, sound or technique.

If one feels there is not enough information yet, then by all means, wait. Don't be discouraged, or think that Pantheon is trying to engage in bad business practices. They are doing the best they can, both as they learn, and as they hear from the general public.

Of course, this is just my humble opinion.

in my opinion this is not true.

i think PANArts sole reason for changing to 7 tones instead 8 was to go lower in pitch - a lower note needs more space (and more hammering). the older 8 tone models are not dischordant, with the exception of a few odd scales, and do not move out of tuning any more than other models.

I think the HALO is experiencing these problems because of 2 main reasons - 1 - the halo has very low tones (harder to get stable) and 2 - because the size and shape of the cavity inside a finished halo is not thoroughly thought through, like for example the cavity inside a huaca or hang is.

I thougth too that this was the reason, but now I think it isn't. Look at the sound models of the 2nd generation with 8 tones in the circle: They all have the deep tones like the models with 7 tones.

The 7 tones in the circle firstly came up with the Low Hang in Low Voice. On these instruments the Ding became the first tone of the scale and the deepest tone in the circle was only one or tow tones higher than the Ding.

I think the 7 tones are part of the concept of "The Hang" that the Hang makers found in late 2007: An instrument that focuses on sound and not of melody and rhythm. The 7 tones are a unsymmetrical aspect of the Hang's sound sculpture.

So, if one "need's" an 8th tone, he want something else than the Hang of 2008 or 2009.

Ixkeys

Hi,

I would like to ask if others would be interested in a voting. I am!

I am interested which of the current 8 Scales of the Halo you would prefer. I am also interested to know (if you are on the waiting list) if you do not want a Halo any more, if you would like to wait for new models without body resonance.

Good Idea or not?


Epi