hangforum.com - The Archive

Today I watched this video by Kyle Cox:
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=XES6NVc9Y4o

Starting at 1:35 the players play with the opening at the bottom side of the Halo. At first horizontally, then vertically. They blow with the flat hands on the opening, but there isn't heard any sound besides the noises created by exciting the rim of the opening.

The Halo doesn't seem to have a noticeable Helmholtz Resonance.

Because it is possible that this is a special problem of this single video I looked for other videos with the Halo played on the bottom side and found this video by Omrhythm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOvyTdRlWp0

And it is the same effect in this video: Omrhythm blows with his flat hand on the opening (beginning at 1:35) but no sound is heard besides the noise from the rim of the opening.

Then I also looked at this video by Kyle Cox:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFFX2ch9MhM

In the first part he plays on an instrument built from two bottom sides of a Halo. Two round openings in the middle of each half. He also uses his flat hands in the same way as in the other videos to blow onto the opening. And the same effect: Only the sound of the rim is noticeable.

I wondered whether Kyle undertood what the function of the Gu of a Hang is: To create the Helmholtz Resonance. This is by now the only explanation I can think of, why Kyle built such an instrument with an opening on both sides: Which such an instrument a Helmholtz Resonance can't be created because the chamber is not closed so the air pressure inside the instrument cannot be heightened when you blow on the opening (which is necessary to let the system oscillate).

Does anybody know more about this?

Ix

Hi,

I agree. On all videos I saw on youtube where the player is playing on the bottom side is nothing more to hear as the "handclap".
I know, that a lot of is lost in such videos, but on other Hangvideos this resonance is clear to hear.
I wondered a lot about the video where Kyle plays an Halo with two holes.
This makes no sense. The holes are absolute irrelevant in this case.
I think that the Halo is to big, to activate the helmholtz resonance.
No problem, because the Halo is an different instrument as the Hang.
I only wonder if people speak about the helmholtz in combination with an Halo. There is nothing like that. Helmholtz means not only "boom, boom" from the handclap.

Greetings
Frank

Hello everyone!

First, I would like to give my compliments to you, Ixkeys. I've always liked your analytic approach.

Then, I quote Frank: "I think that the Halo is to big, to activate the helmholtz resonance. "

This is not possible. A vessel of ANY size will activate a helmholtz resonance, once the correlation of air volume and size of opening are correct. Perhaps, in case of the Halo, something is not "right" and therefore the Helmholtz resonance doesn't work (if this is being the case that is, I haven't really closely listened, so I can't say).

I quote Ix: "...he plays on an instrument built from two bottom sides of a Halo."

Yes that's exactly it, as far as I can see. Kyle Cox stuck two bottom sides of his Halo's together. Call it what you want. A joke, a drum, a sound device, whatever. That's fine with me, each to their own. Obviousely a vessel like that will not develope a Helmhotz resonance, but I doubt that this was an aim to be achieved in this case. So, I'd describe this thing as a toy to have fun with (eh, no negativity in that...).

After all, I have not seen many people make use of the Helmholtz resonance in the Hang. Mainly, the top side and it's tones are being played. I'm not even sure if the earliest Hang models really had a Helmholtz resonance as well. Hence my question: So what?

I personally am leaving all that alone. It doesn't seem to make sence to discuss that (for me). People do what they want anyway, unfortunately...

But looking at these links, Ixkeys, I stumbled across a clip which really got on my nerves. Have a listen to this, especially the Soprano Pans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTRcbaJpDbg

Kyle Cox plays along as well. I've written earlier about people beating the hell out of their instruments. This is what I was talking about. It's just sad and frustrating, even moreso, because a PANTUNER is playing along in that group. Can't find the smilie steaming out of his ears, 'cause that's what I'd love to use right now!!! If anyone is able to waych that clip right through, good for you, I couldn't...

we.

PS: There are more clips of Kyle playing with a small Combo. Same thing. I already started to wonder if I am suffering from a slight form of hyper acusis, because only hearing that gets me phisically shaking. My method to calm down is to look at some beautiful sceneries and peacefull music. Nothing to do with steel, but nevertheless very calming:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvVlqRO3gFY

good night.

go on man, rape your pan!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX0oMPJfSFI

Aaron, since you're having a special relationship with Kyle, and since he would not speak up himself, can you perhaps shed some light on this? Do you find these tones "agreable"? come on...

Werner, this is the smilie you was looking for:

It is not in the regular smilies set. But you can include it with the following code:


You are right that you cannot see much people making use of the Helmholtz resonance of the Hang - especially in videos. But it is not playing the Gu directly what is - in my point of view - the most important use of the Helmholtz resonance. You can integrate it in your playing on the Ding side. But this is seen extremely seldom in videos too.

The pictures in the second video are very beautiful!

Ix

To Frank Ixkeys and Werner,
Why do you expect the Halo to sound and play the same as a hang?

How many times have we listened to you all saying the Halo is nothing like the hang?

Why do you put yourselves through the torture of watching these videos if you can't stand it?

For you Werner, you need to find another word to use instead of using "rape" all the time I find it very offensive that you use that word so freely.

Frazz

Hello everyone!

Frazzledfrozzle, in case you read my first post in this thread, you will have noticed that I don't care about how the Halo sounds or doesn't sound. I am leaving all that alone, as I wrote. So please do not include me in that one will you.

As for the word "rape". YOU find another word which fits better what I mean! You find it offensive how freely I use this word? Do you know what? GOOD!!!

There is finally "some" form of reaction instead of the usual 'no reaction'.

I feel really offended and insulted too, to see someone mistreating an instrument like that! And how! So yes, for me "rape" is exactly the proper word!

Why do you think that I except this?

My motivation is to learn more about differences and similarities of these instruments.

Isn't it an interesting topic whether you can integrate a Helmholtz resonance in playing a Halo or not? There are many people who understand the Halo as an alternative to the Hang. The Helmholtz resonance is one of the main aspects of the Hang. The bottom side of the Halo is designed similar to the Hang. So it is obvious that people will expect that the Halo work similar. The topic of my post was to find out whether it does or not.

Why do scientists concern themselves with science?

Ix

Hi,

@frazzledfozzle. I agree with Ixkeys last posting 100%.
This is the reason, why I think a discussion is interesting. A lot of people speak about the Helmholtz Resonance in combination with Halo, but maybe they only dont know what this resonance is.
I dont hear something like that on all Halo videos. This is not a question of better or not. It is only an importand question to know the difference.

As Werner wrote the Helmholtz has nothing to do with the size of the instrument. My idea was wrong. But Werner said that the correlation of air volume and size of opening must be correct. And it seems, that this is not the case on the Halo.
There is nothing wrong, with this. The Halo is not the Hang. But it is an very interesting fact to know, that the Helmholtz is one of the central part on the Hangsound.

I qoute Panart from the Hangguide: "If you hit the GU with the palm of your hand you will hear a dark, breathy sound. You are activating the air resonance of the instrument. The air in the curved neck resides on the air inside the receptacle. The hang is breathing. You can induce this physics anywhere on the instrument: you will always
stimulate the air which is induced by the GU. This deep sound is always present with each stimulation
of this body." http://www.hangblog.org/panart/hang-guide-en-web.pdf

On the very early first generation Hanghang it was maybe not so important, but since the second generation this sound is always present in the Hangsound. Not only if you hit the GU.

So, the question if it is possible to activate the Helmholtz Resonance on the Halo is very interesting. If not, it is nothing wrong.
It is only one more noticeable point to see the difference in physics on Hang and Halo.
And if people search these "dark, breathy sound" it is not unimportant to know if it works or not.

Greetings
Frank

Ix, you are not being scientific - find yourself a halo and conduct the appropriate investigations into the volume of air, the size of the opening - then you are engaging in science.

I've played a halo - with the right strike you can induce the 'whum' sound of air rushing into the opening that you can induce on the gu side of a hang. My understanding of a helmholtz chamber is that it is the tuning of the air chamber inside the instrument to a certain frequency - whether this is happening with the halo I cannot say.

HI,

I dont listen much people playing on a Steelpan. I agree that these sound is not very pleasant to my ears. It is nothing wrong to call it "rape".

Greetings
Frank

werner you think it's "good" that someone is offended by the way you use the word rape, actually not just "good" but "GOOD" in capitals.

You talk of others playing instruments in a way that you dont like with such nastiness.

I think you need to get yourself a FIH and start working on some sort of inner peace or something because you come across as being a very bitter person.

and then of course frank thinks it's all hunky dory as well but then I didn't expect anything more anyway.

frazz
true colours and all that jazz

Hi,

@frazzledfozzle. Because you are relative new on the forum i think it could help you to know that Werner is an expert Steelpanmaker and Steelpantuner. He knows a little bit about this topic.

Greetings
Frank

Hello everyone!

Frazzledfrozzle:
I did not mean to express that I enjoy someone being offended. The word ‘good’ in capital letters should not be standing at the end of the sentence, but at the beginning of the next one. Unfortunately, the internet is screwing up at times at the place I am at present. Hence, I was (and am) not able to edit my posts afterwards.

I mean GOOD, that I was able to provoke a reaction. Whatever reaction, for that matter.

I quote you, Frazzledfrozzle: “…others playing instruments in a way that you dont like…”
The point is not what I like or not. The point is, that this player in this video is clearly overplaying his instruments, hence the nasty, ugly and harsh tones. Trinidadian panplayers refer to this as ‘abusive playing’, respectively they will use the same term you claim I am using “all the time” (Which doesn’t mean that Trinidadians do not play like that. As a matter of fact, a lot of them do…).
So, how else should I call it, what other term should I use? That is why I asked you to find words which fit better what I mean!

At last, whatever you think of me and of my state of mind, you can please put that on hold, all of it.
Check my posts in this thread: http://hangforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=92
And my forth post in this thread, posted on Sept 29, 2009: http://hangforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=455

You will then maybe realize that I am far from being bitter, let alone needing to have an FIH.

I am surprised my post has been ignored as it is one of the few made today relevant to the discussion in this thread, and unconcerned with shit slinging.

HI,

@Mr.Fox

the problem is, that i have not much time at the moment. And my english ist to limited to explain the Helmholtz resonance in a few words. I go tommorow in holiday and i must do a lot of things today.
Are you sure, that you speak about the Helmholtz Resonance? On the Hang you could activate these sound not only if you hit the GU with the flat hand. This is for sure the easyest way and there you have a very loud deep sound. A little bit like a Udu.
On all videos on youtube where Halo player hit the bottom hole with a flat hand is not this deep sound to hear.
And on the video Ixkeys posted above are a lot of players hitting the hole simultan.
The question is not about "better or not". It is only interesting to know, why people speak about the Helmholtz on the Halo if there is nothing like that.
And I think a lot of people dont know about the function of these resonance.
The video from Kyle with the two holes in the Halo is totally not to understand for me. What function have these holes?
It is only about the ringing sound at the rim?

Greetings
Frank (tommorow on the way to Turkey)

Yes I am sure I am able to excite the 'breathing' sound from the hole beneath the halo.

I think perhaps some find it hard because it is larger than the gu on the hang, and requires a larger hand - I am a big person and it attainable for me.

Hi,

@Mr.Fox.

Could you make a video?
On the video where OM is playing, the camera is able to record the deep sound from the top side. But on the bottom hole is nothing more to hear as the clapping hand. And I know OM in person. Nobody could say that he is small and has small hands.
If you have the Hang on your lap and the right angle on your legs you could hit the top side shoulder of the Hang with your carpus or fist and you could make a similar deep sound as on the GU.
And this sound is all the time an important element on the Hangsound.
And again. This discussion has nothing to do with better or not.
But a lot of people speak about the Helmholtz on halo. We only want to see if this Helmholtz resonance is an element on the Halo sound also.
From the videos I could find I say there is nothing like that.
If you have 8 Hangplayers and they play in the same way as the Haloplayers on the Halo Ensemble Video with the flat hand on the hole a deep sound must blow you away. Also if they are beginners. It is not a big trick to hit a hole with a flat hand.
I could not hear that on the video, but the camera is able to record the deep sound from the top notes. How could this be?

Here is another example. Yes, the player is new, but he hit the hole with the flat hand. If he would do the same on Hang there is an Udu like sound, because of the Helmholtz. Nothing like that to hear, but the deep notes on the top side are clear to hear.
Start at 3:08 minute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUByUzJ_O_E




Frank



Greetings
Frank

Hi,

and here is a funny example how easy you could activate the Resonance on the Hang. It is an first generation and you must listen carefully with good speakers. Of course the effect is not very powerfull. If you hit the hole it has much more power. But this brings an idea about what we speak.
A resonance from an air column.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EmT1fGkaQw

Frank

here is a video of a Halo played at the bottom side

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjm7o0gUuvk

P.S. i wounder why my Ip is banned?
Does it have to do with that i have offended you Frank? Well, i really don't think now like i did when i wrote that message and i am going to delete it, sorry...

Werner are you really in Archangelsk, Russia?

Victor