hangforum.com - The Archive

Hallo,

i totally agree with Ixkeys.

The marketing strategy from all the Hang copyist was from the beginning to say: "Here you have something similar" , "Our version from the famous Panart Hang" and so on...

A lot of people only know the Hang from youtube or recordings. It is not possible to hear the potential from the Hang on such videos. The same with Halo, Bell, Caisa videos.
It works to tell this people that the copys are similar instruments.
They never had the experience to feel and hear the Hang and if they buy a Halo, Bell or something else, they dont know what the difference between all this instruments is.
This people are happy with the instrument they got. This is not the big problem.

The problem start at the next step. There are a lot of people who heard a real Hang. Maybe they listen to a busker or a friend play the Hang. A few had the luck to play the Hang for an moment.
At the end they have a big yearning for the sound of the Hang.
Not, because it is a nice percussion or drum instrument. They fell in love to the sound.
If these people go in the marketing trap from any copyst they will be very disappointed at the end.
For this people it is better to end with nothing, as to pay much money for "broken dreams".

I see on youtube, that a lot of Halo players for example make videos and call the instrument a "Halo Drum". And they play in a drumming style on this instrument.
The most of this players use the Tags Halo and Hang together, because they know that a lot of people search for Hang videos.
So, this people must think if Halo=Drum the Hang=also Drum.
This has a big negative impact on the Hang.

More and more Hang shaped instruments will come in the future. Enough people search for another aspect on this instruments. They want to play percussion on these instruments.

What we have in the future? There are a lot of "Handpans" with different qualitys in sound. It seems that the copyist dont care much about the inevitable consequences.
Normally steelpan makers must know, that the sound from steel could have a big impact on the soul from the player and listener.
It could be danger and it is wise that the people in Trinidad play only on special times "carnival" on there steelpan.
If I hear the sound from Caisa and Spacedrum, I could only imagine what this instruments can do with a player who play every day hours on these instruments.

The maker of such instruments bear responsibility. They must be carefully with this powerfull material. But a few ( I not say all ! ) hear maybe only the call of money.

We stand at a crossroads. There will be the Free Integral Hang in the near future.
This Hang has nothing to do with a drum or handpan. People must think about what they search very carefully. Panart has announced in their last letter, that they also will be more carefully with this Hang.

on the other side we see a lot of "Handpans". Percussion instruments.
This is and was not the vision from Panart. The Hang is on another way. That is easy to see.

If anybody realy need a Hang because of the Hangsound and the effect this sound could have on the own soul and the soul from the listener, the only way is to ask PANArt.
If anybody search for an percussion instrument he has the choice.

I only hope that the copyist stop to "ride on the back from the Panart Hang".
This is unfair and has nothing to do with the "respect" for the "originators" they speak about.

I played a lot of years drumset. There is not only one day where my hands dont search and find sounds to play patterns. I like that. I use everything around me. Do you know what a great drumset stand every morning infront of you on your breakfast table?
But for this I dont need the shape from the Hang. To play the Hang or let play the Hang me is a totally different experience.
As Panart wrote in their letter. A lot of people misunderstand the Hang.
Now they take the shape to another direction. The shape is the result of searching for a special sound. To make drums from this shape is for me personally very sad.

This is only my opinion. I wrote this, because I hope people think about that. It is totally clear for me that other people have different opinions.


Greetings
Frank

Thanks for the thoughtful words Frank.

My sense has been that originally, the Hang was conceived as a "percussion instrument" -- not a drum, we all agree, but an instrument in the percussion family -- though with its timbre and melodic/harmonic possibilities, of course, it is already on one 'side' of the percussion circle, becoming more like a vibraphone or marimba or other pitched instrument, in what the player could do with it...

This has been my inference based on the qualities of the first generation Hanghang I have heard and played... it seemed that the Hang as we know it, which clearly has become something more than a percussion instrument, was in some sense "discovered" or "revealed" as F&S learned to isolate the qualities that made it special and unique -- the qualities that we now think of as "Hang" like...

This isn't even opinion, just inference -- I have no knowledge -- but I would be curious to hear the story sometime... it is hard to imagine that F&S could have known that the Hang as it has evolved was latent inside the first mother-Hang... though I understand also that it is conceived of us a gift that was given, that is being given, from Somewhere Else... but that understanding too could have emerged over time, as the Hang-nature became more pure...

I do hope I get to bring a Halo for you to play Frank sometime, it is certainly a first effort and like the first Hanghang, it is still only an indication of what might follow -- or so I trust -- but I hope you will find that it can be more than a drum, a mere "percussion instrument," as well -- as with the Hang, much is in the mind and hands of the player.

We all know people can make the Hang into a percussion instrument -- many without realizing what they are doing...

It is certainly the case that the Halo is not yet as clear in its own voice in saying that this is not what it "wants" to be; and I cannot say except from my own experience, but I do think that the Halo is not intended to be as perfected as the Hang towards one mode of interaction -- not to imply that it could be, even if Kyle wanted to try.

But... when played with someone open to the Hang-nature (for lack of a better way of saying it), it *does* open and bloom with a quiet, listening touch, as well...

...that's what I hope to share with you...

At the moment I am playing all Hang -- I have lent my Halo to another artist I was staying with while at an art residency last month, who fell in love with it. I miss the Halo but it has also been good to refocus entirely on the Hang.

No doubt about it, playing the Halo has made me appreciate the Hang in a new way. Sort of like, if you only know living in the country, then visit a town -- when you go back to the country you realize in a new way what makes it something to treasure.

That's something I'm thankful for today -- here in the US it's Thanksgiving Day.
aaron

PS I agree it is very unfortunate for people to call the Halo a "Halo drum" -- it doesn't help the Halo either. :/

Hey aaron, great reply here... love it!

We all lose our way in life sometimes i'm sure, get drawn into conflict and often find ourselves being torn in several directions, but this analogy is great... its how I felt about the hang again recently following the HangOut... I felt I had lost my way with the hang through so much negativity on the forums.

At the HangOut I realised what matters to me and figured I was worrying too much about what was mattering to everyone else... I was lost in the town but found my way back to the country for sure!

Happy thanksgiving to our US Hangsters

In the interest of balance, here are some of my thoughts (and opinions):



“Marketing” is generally a word with which I have negative associations. It seems to be the emphasis on promotion that bothers me. I would hardly characterize Pantheon’s actions over the past two plus years as heavily based on “marketing.”
My narrative would be very different. In fact, there was actual little direct contact or promotion with customers. I remember seeing just a couple direct posts on forums. People asked to be included on mailing lists for more information. Information was sent out occasionally to people on the list, who had requested it. The demand from players who wanted such an instrument was already there. To me, it seemed that Kyle spent most of his time: 1) doing research and development on materials, processes, etc. to make what he considered a quality instrument (not marketing), and 2) listening to and communicating with customers regarding their interests, his progress, etc. (again, not marketing). I imagine he also spent additional time buying materials and equipment, managing his business, etc. (not marketing, either)


The concept of a “marketing trap” seems to be a somewhat limited impression.

I could give you far, far more examples of satisfied Halo owners than of dissatisfied ones. Of course I don’t know of all Halo players, and there may certainly be some who are less than 100% satisfied.

It is difficult for me to read statements such as the one above, which I consider to be grossly distorted, to remain unchallenged.



I’m not really sure what else people would play. The Hang, Halo, Caisa, Bell, etc. are percussion instruments. They’re not wind or string instruments.

To me, percussion includes a wide range of styles and techniques. Clearly, some of these are not suited for these instruments. I think Frank uses a very narrow definition of “percussion” when he makes the statement above. I think he means something like the way the djembe and some other hand drums are played. Clearly this is too much force for the Hang, but other people might have very different techniques in mind when they talk about and play the Hang using “percussion” techniques.

Some percussive techniques, which I would define in a broader way than Frank does, are preferred by some and not by others (including Felix and Sabina). While I am certainly interested in their thoughts and vision regarding the Hang, I do believe that at least some techniques from other instruments are valid ways of approaching the Hang. Some may disagree, but this seems to be largely a matter of taste and preference. I’m not convinced that any individual or group can say the Hang must be played in certain ways, or cannot be played in certain ways.

The irony here is that I largely agree with what I understand of Felix and Sabina’s approach toward the Hang. Actually, I strongly agree with PANArt’s statement from 2008: “We recommend approaching the instrument in freedom.” While I draw the line at playing in ways that can cause detuning or damage to the Hang, the ability to explore in freedom is one of the wonderful qualities of the Hang. I also find that to be true with the Halo.



I’m not sure what the “inevitable” consequences are. And it is a big assumption that other manufacturers don’t care about them. I can think of many examples of Kyle’s private and public expressions and actions that indicate a great deal of concern about the quality of his product, as well as the satisfaction of his customers. I know of less from Luis at Bellart, but he, too, seems generally interested in producing a quality product as well (with many scale choices for his customers).


More assumptions about what respect is, how it is measured and known, etc.



Wow, it really depends on how someone defines “like a Hang.” Again, there could be many different ideas about whether these other instruments are “like a Hang.” Some (like Frank and Ix) don’t think so, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Many others (though very few on this forum) think that there are enough similarities that many, many people could be quite satisfied with at least some of these alternatives. Far better than nothing, in many people’s opinions, including mine. At least I’m telling people that that’s my opinion.



This seems to be more a matter of opinion and taste, rather than of telling the truth versus lying.

If someone is interested in a Hang, they should certainly pursue one. At least the starting point for how to do so is clear, and has been, for some time. The outcome of such pursuits is a bit more in question, but if someone wants a Hang, they should know what to do (and be prepared to wait).

Ultimately, I think the Hang will retain its primacy for a good while in this class of instruments. But I don’t see it as necessary to declare these others essentially worthless in order to support the Hang.

I think these two sentences are two of the of the most important points: supply, and the primacy of the Hang.

First, the problem of "supply."

Honestly -- I do not understand is the upset over the idea that the Halo or Bell are taking something *away* from the Hang.

Whatever Kyle or Luis may be "taking," it is certainly not business or money; PANArt cannot make enough Hanghang to satisfy the demand in the world for them. PANArt can literally sell as many Hanghang as they make -- and as people have observed, they could sell Hanghang for far more money than they do. We certainly all agree that money and business is not what PANArt is about. For that I have infinite respect.

Since there will never be enough Hanghang for those who want them -- not even for those who "deserve" them, or are judged to have the appropriate relationship to them...

...and since there is no way to tell, even if you begin pursuing one, if you will ever have a chance to get one -- no matter how long you wait. I and other people posting on the "other forum" find themselves in the unhappy situation of knowing our initial letter was received -- because we got mail confirmation from PANArt -- but NOT getting the recent email about the FIH... :.(

...the question remains unanswered, what is someone who has no Hang to do...?

There is not a philosophical question, it's a pragmatic one... :/

As long as Luis and Kyle (and whoever is next) behave with respect, honesty, and integrity -- and I will argue to the last that Kyle does, and I have no reason to not believe Luis is as well; e.g. neither claims to be making Hanghang! -- I don't understand why there would be any upset if they offer some.. thing... that can satisfy SOME of the yearning and hope the Hang has created.

(Incidentally, since Frank I think mentioned it: Kyle's original website text about the Halo being a "version" of the Hang was written without premeditation as a simple description to put on the the website, not out of some business calculation, but simply to describe what he was doing! It wasn't "marketing" -- and if he had known the upset this would cause, he would have chosen more diplomatic wording! I know this for a fact. Fortunately as many of you may know, I am now helping semi-officially him with communications stuff, and am in a position to help make clear, every day and in every way, what his intentions are -- and are not -- and what the Halo is -- and is not.)

I believe we agree that the Halo is NOT a Hang, and that it never will be -- nor is the Bell, I assume.

But it is not intended to be, it is not "marketed" to be, and it is evolving on its own trajectory.

Yet as a player of both Hang and Halo, I can say that some of the unique spaces that the Hang first revealed to me ARE accessible to the Halo player -- spaces in the mind and heart that are not available through any other instrument or practice I have engaged in.

As far as my lifetime of listening carefully has prepared me -- c.f. my website, quietamerican.org -- I can therefore say with assurance that the Halo is "like" a Hang.

But! I agree that the Hang will almost certainly (in all of our lifetimes) continue to be the most refined, delicate, and subtle example of... itself.

That the Hang sings with the chorus of heaven is reason for gratitude, awe, and delight!

I feel lucky every day that it has come into my life, and I still mourn every day that there is this conflict among all of us who feel similarly.

But! There is plenty of room in this world, below heaven, for other pleasures and delights, and I can find delight -- and feel gratitude -- for them too. The Halo may sing with an earthly chorus, but it has always been through the materials of this world that we construct echoes of those beyond.

I keep trying to say such things, to slowly convince people if I ever can, that there is nothing to fear or despise in the Halo (or Bell, etc.). It is the reason I came back here, after taking a break to let the peace return.

As ever, let there be light. And let there be light. And let there be light!

PS if you have private questions about the Halo, I am happy to answer them as best I can. I am not an employee of Pantheon Steel, but I have a unique relationship with Kyle now, and can speak perhaps with more perspective than most other people.

If I cannot obtain a Hang from Shangri-La, I shall humbly and gratefully accept a Pantheon Halo from Farmington, MO-USA -- and cherish it for as long as I live...

You can be sure of that

What is inspiration?
That is a deep question, but you see, life is full of people who drew inspiration from something and made something really personal and unique.
These hang inspired instruments aren't copies. They are unique in their true sense, but people fail to understant that.
Led Zepplind were ' inspired' by lots of blues and jazz songs, but they crated something amazing from that inspiration, although lots of their songs are what uncultured people call ' rip offs' . Because if you see, every song is a rip off of the first song created.
The question is, where did it begin?
and it certainly didnt begin with the hang.


Cheers

Hello everyone!

Goncalo, you're saying:
"These hang inspired instruments aren't copies. They are unique in their true sense, but people fail to understant that."

and you're saying:
"The question is, where did it begin?
and it certainly didnt begin with the hang."

That is a lot you know about and I don't. So, please let me know what makes you know and say things like these, because I am really interested to learn about these points of view. Thanks.

we.