hangforum.com - The Archive

Currently there is a discussion at handpan.org with the title "PANArt Returns to the attack". Louis, the maker of the Bells from BEllart stated, that he was requested by lawyers in behalf of PANArt to change the design of his instruments. Many posters added their opinions to that topic.

In order to understand what is going on there, you have to know about an important background that is concealed by Louis in his forum posts at handpan.org:

The design of the Hang is internationally registered in the Hague System for the International Registration of Industrial Designs since April 2009 with the registration number DM/071656. This means that the design of the Hang is a property of the PANArt Hangbau AG and it isn't allowed to copy it without the permission of the owner. You can look at this registration at the Website of the World Intellectual Property Organization: http://www.wipo.int/ipdl/en/hague/key.jsp?KEY=DM/071656

Lous was informed about this registration by PANArt's lawyers many months ago.

Ixkeys and Frank

It is also important to understand that under first-world patent law, you can't patent, or defend a patent in court for, aspects of your design that have been released into the public.

Any patent granted in 2009 might protect recent innovations -- but not the original design of the Hang such as has inspired the Halo, BEll, or any of the many other homemade attempts to reproduce the Hang.

It's ironic that a company so devoted to craft process turns to the machinery of the state to threaten those that it inspired.

Especially when PANArt's problem is that demand for their creation so vastly exceeds their capacity to produce it that they can seek not relief for economic losses, but only control over an idea that has long since passed out of their guardianship.


Felix,

As I wrote elsewhere,

To play the Hang requires an open hand.

So too the making and the giving.

Open your hand, and return to grace.

It's right there, waiting only for you to let go.

Let there be light.

aaron

Hi,

@Aaron.

I dont know, that you are an expert in europaen law. It is easy to see on the WIPO Website, what is under protection. It is not an patent, but the design of the Hang is under protection.
If you build something very similar it is not allowed by law.
I dont think that you want to pay the lawyer bill from people who are take your advice to fight against european law.
So, maybe it is wise to be a little bit more carefull in matters where we dont be experts.

To talk about the reasons from Panart is a differnet topic. But here we have a clear legal status and I think it is wise and much more cheaper dont to ignore that.

I speak with Ixkeys about this topic, before he make the posting. That is why you could read also my name under Ix posting.
The point is, that Lluis know a lot of time, that he could not build his Bell in this shape. It is not new for him. He made the decission to invest money and livetime in this project with the knowledge, that he has a problem with this design protection.

Greetings
Frank

Aaron, it is not a patent. It is a registered industrial design. But you are not a lawyer and I'm not too. It doesn't make sense to discuss those specific legal details we don't understand enough.

And: It is not your problem and not our problem. It is a very special problem of Louis. He knew about it for a long time but didn't care. So why is he complaining today? He could solve the problem in the past but failed.

And to your statement for Felix:
Louis decided to compete and not to collaborate. Why should PANArt be the part who collaborates with someone who want to compete? There isn't any logic.

I think this controversy should better have not become public. But Louis decided to make it public without telling the whole story.

I repeat: This is not our problem. There is no reason for Hang players or Halo players to join this controversy. It is Louis who can solve it by serious communication with PANArt.

Ix

Well, Ix, you have heard one story, and I have heard another... in public and in private.

We will all see what happens in due time...

I think there is a great misunderstanding, aaron. You wrote in your "open letter" at handpan.org:

"All of us here want the same thing: to celebrate the Hang and praise it."

This is not what PANArt wants. And also I do not belong to "all of us". I don't praise the Hang. This is a very great misunderstanding of the Hang.

Sit down at a quiet place, play and listen to your Hang.
If you want to praise, go to church.

And now it's time for bed.

Ix

Ix,

Minor translation issue. I didn't mean praise as in worship it, as an object of devotion -- I meant, praise as in celebrate it.

As for what PANArt wants and doesn't want, I think we'd agree that none of us truly or fully know -- we can only stir the few tea leaves made available to us, and make inferences based on the evolution of the Hang itself. Perhaps not even Felix knows what he wants...

...which is another way of saying, perhaps, that what he wants is as complex as he is, and the Hang is, and this community is. Perhaps it is many things which are mutually incompatible.

That is how it seems to me, anyway.

And thanks, yes, I do play my Hang, all the time... and I listen very closely indeed...

Even more closely these days -- as I have said elsewhere, my understanding and appreciation for it is increased, not decreased, by my understanding and appreciation for the Halo.

And recently, by playing a first-generation Hang as well -- which is I found in some ways nearly as different from the current Hanghang as the Halo! What a lovely and amazing creation, the late first gen...

One reason I hope Luis continues his work (whatever it looks like) is so the world may have more instruments that approach the height of the best first-generation Hanghang. Who knows what he might make in a few more years...

aaron

I think that this doesnt make any sense. Felix and Sabina have such an esoterical view of the hanghang, they don't seem like the kind of people who would sue Luis.
And people will always want the PANart products, there is no need for violent actions.

Hallo Goncalo,

welcome on the Hangforum.

It is a misunderstanding to think that the hangmakers Felix and Sabina are very esoteric people. PANArt and Hang have not so much to do with "esoteric". Not easy to understand, I know. The question is, what is esoteric? I think a lot of people use this word for a lot of different things.
PANArt know that the Hang has a very big potential and a big impact on the soul from a lot of people. But this is not esoteric.
PANArt use often a very "figurative language" and if you dont know them in person it could easy be that their words sound a little bit esoteric.
I cant explain my thoughts about this better, because of my limited english.

Greetings
Frank

I think what Frank is trying to say is that PANart may come across to a majority as being esoteric, this is largely due to their lack of prescence online in a world where being online and community is largely built from being open about plans and talking with said community. They prefer to continue with their work rather than spend time talking online and as such the persona is that only a select few will ever know their true intentions.

The release of the recent news letter from PANart explains their position pretty well, it can be difficult to understand the thoughts and motives of a company that are so dedicated to their art.

BELL art have done well in copying the Hang, but that is the problem, it's a direct copy in shape, size, colour and even to some extend the logo BELLart, PANart, to the untrained eyes and ears they could be seen as the same instrument (sound sculpture).

I think PANart have a duty to themselves and to the Hang community to protect their interest and as such I do not think that is difficult or hard to understand, sometimes to protect your interests you need to use the full force of the law when someone does not comply and all other avenues have been exhausted... from what I have gathered PANart gave Luis a lot of chances to speak with them and resolve any issues amicably, this failed when Luis posted over on Handpan.org personal information from Felix and cried foul, subsequently posts were deleted from the forum and I do hope luis has been in contact with PANart and is now trying to resolve the issue... they're not demons, ogres or unapproachable people, they're human, but with an incredible passion for what they do, a passion that is being misconstrude to arrogance and anger.

For those that have never met them its easy to see how and why this is manifested, online community makes it much easier to interpret things in any manner of ways, for quotes to be taken out of context, for languages to become a barrier and words to be turned into weapons of war.... for something so beautiful that has been created, human nature is to destroy it in its own attempts to understand it.

Anyway... i've waflled on again with my own thoughts... hopefully some of that is what Frank was trying to say.

Be well

Kelly

Hallo,

@Kelly. Thank you. Good posting. I agree with the most what you said.

At the moment I have not much time. Sorry for this short answer.


Greetings
Frank

Thank you (:
Well i can see that they worked for so many years to invent, and develop the hanghang, and that they suffer to see it 'copied' ( the halo and BELL's are original instuments with personality, of course that they where inspired by the Hang, but they have developped themselves to being much, much more. )
I am amazed by the hang, and one of my biggest dreams is to own one , to interact with it.
But what people dont seem to understand, is that not everyone can have a Hang. the production is very limited.
Luis , Kyle and Jim give us some alternatives, some beautifully crafted alternatives.
I do not know Felix and Sabina personaly, i wish i did so i could share with them my passion for the hanghang.
But they will never create enough sound sculptures for everyone that needs one.
I don't understand where Luís sinned. He is just trying to bring the same hapiness and confort hang owners have.

Hello everyone!

I would like to express my thanks to Kelly for being a "senseful voice".

At the same time, I must express my disgust about so many posts expressing their dislike and angryness towards PANArt.

Since when is owning or trying to sucessfully obtain a Hang a human right?

My personal view is following: When there was "only Hang", there was no problem. Since there are imitations available, the "Hangworld" has been somewhat "poisened".
I'm reading myself through posts at the Handpan Forum and I shake my head in disbelieve. This is "give me give me" and "competition" at it's best (or well... worst).

Look, don't be mistaken: PANArt says they are not a "business to grow", not in it "for profit". That's what PANArt says. It's called "Public Relations". Wikipedia will give you a good understanding of what PR means.
Fact is, that PANArt is protecting their product (yes, that is what it is) just like any other company.

Like it or not, PANArt is right to do so, I would do the same. Asian companys would do the same. Forgive me my sarcasm, but history shows us that american companies are the best at protecting their products, selling them as the "first, best, one and only".

As I know from direct communication, PANArt has been informing Luis repeatedly concerning his infringement of PANArt's industrial design. Luis didn't react. PANArt sent laywers. Luis started to speak up publicly. Then Luis deleted his posts.

It's called "chess mate"...

I hope you are not reffering to me. I totally understand Panart's point.
I'm not angry at them, if i could express any felling towards Felix and Sabina it would be one of gratitude.

Hum, no that is not called PR, that is called hypocrisy. Did you know that the same company that owns Dove, the brand that campains for real beauty and etc. is the same one that owns Axe body spray... i disagree with what you are saying.
I believe that the Hang creators have a good intention, they dont do it just for profit.. But can't allow other peple copying their invention.



Greetings